Any Allegheny people agree with Loren Pope?

LakeWashington · 06-19-2007, 01:22 PM

I just read Pope's book, 'Colleges that Change Lives.' Are his views regarding Allegheny College current?

lkf725 · 06-23-2007, 12:03 AM

I am interested in this also. Maybe it would get more action on the parent board?

Whistle Pig · 10-03-2007, 04:17 PM

Lauren Pope is just selling books. I think his stuff is pretty much trite and tripe.

mstenger · 10-18-2007, 12:41 PM

Well I used his book to help my son select his college. He is now a freshmen at Allegheny and loving it.

lkf725 · 10-18-2007, 01:19 PM

mstenger,
Could you please elaborate about the good qualities of Allegheny?

tommybill · 10-18-2007, 01:53 PM

From Post # 3…. Lauren Pope is just selling books. I think his stuff is pretty much trite and tripe.

The most important words her are “I think.” Everyone is welcome to think what they want, but in this case the person doing the writing is wrong in their thinking.

Pope’s two books are the most important books published when beginning to read about college admissions. Don’t stop with them, but do begin with them.

Mainly his message is fit. Some kids fit Swarthmore, they should go there, some fit their local state university, they should go there and some fit Allegheny College they should go there. As a general statement the schools Pope has listed in his books are better schools today than when he wrote the two books.

Good luck with it.

Whistle Pig · 10-18-2007, 04:45 PM

Agree completely. Imo, Pope's stuff is dated, generalized, not particularly insightful as just the title implies that these few he's selected to generalize about somehow make MORE of a difference than others excluded from the book. There is virtually no evidence for his argument aside from personal observation and the fact he's probably been on these campuses.

So, this thought ...

Quote:

Pope’s two books are the most important books published when beginning to read about college admissions. Don’t stop with them, but do begin with them.

is more dare I say it ... Popeycock. And the notion of "fit" is sorely over-baked, stated. Kids adapt. The truth is that they "fit" often where they go. The decision becomes self rationalizing. Like buying a car. I bought it so I love it.

So we'll have to go about 180 degrees on the value of Pope's books. They're fine, but they are mostly a sort of fiction. Very little fact and no attempt at measuring value-addedness whatsoever. Does not diminish their read as long as one realizes his books more than most, are simply his opinion. Nothing more.

And here's one more opinion, not fact in any stretch of the imagination ...

Quote:

As a general statement the schools Pope has listed in his books are better schools today than when he wrote the two books.

They may be. They may not be. First one would have to determine what "better" means and define it for us before making a statement like that and implying it's some sort of "truth."

But to Allegheny .. my opinion (yea, what I think) is that it's a fine place, several new important facility additions in recent years, one of those places that is sorely over valued, i.e. what a student receives doesn't merit the perceived reputation it has. It's a fine, ok place, and I'd not have any problem sending my child there (she's applied as a safety) but not worth what the sticker and net costs are. IMO. btw, my wife went there, enjoyed it, and she was NOT in favor of our dd applying there. She said it was fun, ok, but simply nothing special. I would agree.

That said, as we've heard here ... as in nearly EVERY case ... the place is what one makes of it.She had to laugh though when she read their admissions blurb talking about the "beautiful campus." It's nice, not even close to really beautiful campuses ... Bucknell, Wake, Furman, Tulane, Rhodes, Duke, etc. etc. ... Meadville's the pits, especially under 2 feet of snow, which occurs fairly regularly.

shennie · 10-18-2007, 08:10 PM

My husband and I are both alum. We graduated in 1978. I think Allegheny is a terrific school. One of my sons applied and was accepted but chose to go somewhere else. However, we would have been delighted if he had gone there. I love the school and maintain ties with it. I have visited many campuses with my 3 kids and find that Allegheny is quite a lovely campus if not at the level of Swarthmore or Middlebury. Yes, Meadville is not the greatest town in the world, but we spend most of our time on campus so it didn't matter all that much.

I found that my classes were very engaging for the most part. I formed great relationships with some of my professors, some of which continue to this day. We were both admitted to highly rated grad programs.

I also feel that there will be people who write about their various colleges who will also state similar feelings. I think that much of choosing a liberal arts college IS a matter of fit.

Finally, someone once said that if Allegheny were located in the northeast, it would considered much more prestigious than it is. It's location is what makes it less desirable, not the school itself.

Whistle Pig · 10-18-2007, 09:29 PM

They don't say that of Oberlin. Or Case. Or Kenyon. Or CMU. I always think of PA as the NE. That's a rationalization, imo.

Let me repeat, I like Allegheny College, and I'd not be disappointed if my child attended. It offers all those things shennie notes and more. It's a fine place. The question of Pope's perspective is what I disagree with. Aside from anecdotes, he provides no evidence for his case about AC or any other among the chosen few he wrote of. It's the Pope's beauty contest, no more, no less.

Again, my own perspective, fit is a mythological thing fostered by admission officers among nearly 5,000 higher educational institutions to encourage our belief that there is that "one true love" out there simply waiting to be found. I simply don't buy it after being on literally hundreds of campuses, hearing and giving tons of admissions talks, etc. It's trying to find separation or differentiation ASIDE from price tag, room benies, etc.

tommybill · 10-19-2007, 08:00 AM

Post 7….

Whistle Pig thanks for giving us your personal opinion of Pope’s books.

Both books were helpful to me and my family when my daughter was looking for a college to attend. As such I feel free to suggest them to others. The fact that these two books have be in print for as long as they have tells me others have also found and continue to find them helpful.

As for your personal opinion that “the notion of "fit" is sorely over-baked,” I would suggest you read your next line, “they "fit" often where they go.” “They fit often” means sometimes they don’t fit. I suggest that it is important for people to consider “fit” when looking at colleges, careers, life partners ECT.

Whistle Pig · 10-19-2007, 08:47 AM

You make an interesting point. Mine was that fit happens mostly post-purchase vs. finding that matchmaker like Pope who magically guides us to the promised campus. Of course there are factors.

But to illustrate my point ... today about 85% of college goers attend public campuses. 30 years past only about 48% attended publics. And furthermore, there are many more attending today than then. Why the dramatic shift?

Is it because there's a better "fit?" I sorely doubt it, although if you talk to Michigan or Penn Staters so many will tell you how great it was and how much they "loved" it. It fit. But in fact the decision to attend those mass educational institutions was the function of one very pragmatic issue ... money/cost AND the inability to differentiate value from the Alleghenies, etc. of the world. While people can very clearly define why they'd pay more for a Toyota Corolla than a Chevy Chevette ... and do, as we've seen the more expensive has become the purchase of choice ... the public increasingly indicates with their children's feet/matriculation their inability to determine the worthiness or added value that requires paying more. And ironically, I believe that virtually all would agree that one's educational decision is far more critical than the auto one purchases.

So simply an illustration that fit happens following the purchase far more than it happens pre-purchase, especially when one is using another's opinion to lead that judgement. All I'm saying, having read Pope's stuff, is that it's far more fiction than science, one guy's opinion, and worth literally no more than one's 17 year old daughter's perception of a campus. In fact she might do a little more hard assessment in looking at programs, selectivity, and other Princeton Review kind of data review.

Lastly, your point that these books have been in print so long merely offers another reason to say "bunk." And dated bunk at that.

monydad · 10-19-2007, 10:32 AM

Actually at least someone on CC has made a comment to that effect about Oberlin; like if it was located closer to the Northeast coast it would be yet again more selective.

I'm sure it's true that money is an overriding consideration in choosing state schools vs. private schools, generically.

But, leaving money aside, if one is considering a liberal arts college, I believe issues of fit are critical in this choice. These schools are each small eough to have a prevailing personality (or ies). Years later you may not be able to quantify differences in your ultimate career outcomes, but you will certainly know it if you spent four years being socially ostracized because you didn't fit in with those kids. Or, if you had the best time of your life because you fit in perfectly.

Bigger schools provide more lattitude to find various social circles with various types of people.

Similarly, you will know it if your small school didn't offer courses in a field that you became interested in. This is, again, a "fit" issue, but on the academic side instead of the social side.

LakeWashington · 10-19-2007, 02:32 PM

I appreciate your provocative perspective, Whistle.

lkf725 · 10-19-2007, 02:54 PM

Good points monydad. I agree that the elusive "fit" is more important with smaller colleges. Another consideration is whether students wants to know almost everybody they see each day, or whether they are comfortable in a larger group with many strangers. (My kids would opt for the second one, as they feel a little cramped by our fairly large hs).

PS - I have a friend who attended Allegheny and loved it. I have a feeling that he was a BMOC though, so others may feel differently.

fencersmother · 10-25-2007, 10:02 PM

A little story from the fencing world:
We were at a fencing tournament at Allegheny in Sept (called, surprisingly enough: The Allegheny College Open). My S, who might be inclined to apply to Allegheny because their club team needs him, asked a student there: "Is Allegheny a Liberal Arts School?" Her reply: "Oh, yes!!! We're very liberal here. Everyone is a liberal." Sigh... it really turned my son off when she couldn't differentiate between "Liberal Arts" and "Liberal."

All said, I agree with Whistle Pig - Pope is selling books - that's it. Allegheny is a nice little college in a really dumpy town. Is its $140K Accounting degree worth it more than the same $60K accounting degree at Penn State? Not likely.