sashimi46

except maya lin is not an architect...


if an architect is who you want to be

soozievt

There is no question that a BA is not the same as a BArch in terms of the major. These are different routes. My D wanted the BA + MArch route for several reasons. So, I am definitely not likening the BA to a BArch whatsoever. However, this poster IS interested in BA programs as well and seemed to not realize that there are many out there if this is the route he/she wants, followed by a MArch.

To the OP....Tufts has a Major in Architectural Studies. It also has one in Architectural Engineering and then a minor in either (you could combine both Major/Minor or even with another subject if you wanted). My D loved it. It is also my alma mater. I know nothing of your academic profile. I will assume if you are applying to Yale, you are a tippy top student. I am not sure why Princeton would be off your list.....it is as hard to get into Yale as Princeton. Actually, my D was waitlisted in RD at Princeton, and deferred EA and denied RD at Yale, and so she came out ahead at Princeton. My D preferred Brown over Princeton, however. At Brown, you can also take arch classes at RISD, by the way, and she has. Penn, Lehigh, and Conn College have nice BA in Arch programs.

If you are looking at BArch....what about Carnegie Mellon? RISD? USC?

Also, are you sure that Tulane's BArch is only four years? I really think it is five, though admit to not researching it. I say this because last fall my D did an arch program abroad and her roommate was in the Tulane BArch program and I know hers was five years.

soozievt

One thing I disagree with Cheers about is that she says that a BA in Architecture is not equivalent to pre-med. But in some ways, it is. Both are courses laying the groundwork and prerequisites for professional study in their respective fields, as opposed to entering a professional graduate program with NO background in the field. A BA in Arch involves study of arch history, design, math, physics, studio art, computer rendering, environmental science, and so on just like pre-med has courses that are building a background for further professional study. In fact, a BA in Arch is often termed "Pre-Architecture." When my D was studying arch abroad, for example, in Syracuse's Pre-Architecture (actually called this) program, they indeed were doing design studio, arch drawing, arch history, etc. This is not the same as NO background in the field and only studying English, Psych, and French, for example. Nobody said it was anything like a BArch....it isn't. But it is akin to pre-med.....it is even more than pre-med because with pre-med, that is not even a major/concentration, but just some prerequisite classes. Pre-Arch in a BA in Architecture program is a major concentration in this subject and pre-training/background to professional training in a MArch program. So, I am not clear why you say it is not like pre-med. It is more like pre-med is to med school than studying English is to graduate Arch school.

People don't choose a BA because it is "better" than a BArch. There are other very good concrete reasons to elect this path. It is not meant to be the same path. But it is a viable one and is an option for those who don't want to commit to a major at age 17 that they haven't yet experienced, do not want to devote 3/4's of their undergraduate coursework to, who want breadth in their undergraduate education, etc.

Corbusi8

sashimi,
It was my understanding that Maya Lin got a BA from Yale, then an M.Arch, then a DFA , but I could be wrong. You are correct that she doesn't design buildings. Although Leon Krier is an example of an "architect" who has only one structure to his name (I believe.)

Soozeivt,
I am glad to see someone with a perspective from the BA-M.arch track. Like isabel89 previously noted, she chose different schools with different types of programs so that she could keep her options as open as possible and not have to force that decision on herself too soon. Really I am just looking for a school that has a solid program (whatever kind it may be) where I will feel comfortable and happy. (I nkow, I know: Thank you capt. obvious!) Please don't think I am weighing one KIND of program over another.

Yes, I am fairly sure that Tulane (though it may be some other school) has made its B.Arch 4 years for some unkown reason, and I and most of the other ppl on this thread doubt the validity of such a speedy degree.

You mentioned majors in Architectural Studies and Architectural Engineering. Aside from Tufts, I think Duke has such an option within its BSE, and that would also give me another in-state safety (U of AL). In fact, that is what my parents are really pushing me towards, hoping that I could maybe go in-state for free then use some saved up stipends (assuming I could get one of the more lucrative scholarships) to help pay for an Master's at Harvard,Yale, etc. But that seems like it would just be more schooling than the other routes. However it deserves noting that many of the professionals/educators I have met with explained to me that among the bigger issues in the field is the effective communication btw Architect and Contractor/Const. Firm/Engineers/Consultants, etc. Perhaps a more varied education might give me an edge in this regard. However- I don't want to shoot myself in the foot and be unable to get into grad school with a non-architecture degree. (Even though it is possible.)

What do you think?

soozievt

Corbusi....so much in selecting colleges and options is your personal preference and not "shoulds." For instance, BArchs are great if you are positive you know you want to study architecture and are willing to have a major chunk of your education be focused in one area. For many, this is definitely the way to go. For my own kid (I'm using this as an example of how it is about personal preferences/criteria)....she could not know for certain she wanted to go into architecture when applying to college, but only that she was leaning that way and had done some things (arch internship, drafting/CAD independent study, research papers on arch topics, art classes) in high school to explore the field. However, architecture is not a "subject" you get to study in high school....at least not where we live and so it is hard to know with 100% certainty that one wants to commit to a field they haven't yet truly studied much. My D knew she might want this field, however, so she did pick colleges that offered this as a major (BA schools). I have a kid in another field who entered a professional undergraduate degree program which involved a commitment ahead of time and also where 70% of her curriculum is in the program, just like with BArch programs basically. But in her case, she KNEW she wanted to go into that field as she has been immersed in it her entire life and was able to know. My arch kid could not make a similar committment at 17, even if she was leaning that way (and in the end, IS going onto become an architect). She also wanted to study other subjects and have a liberal arts type of degree. She wanted a certain type of undergraduate experience. Some also believe that having such an education makes them better at their profession later on....more to draw upon, if you will. She also is very involved in things beyond her academics, which would be nearly impossible in a BArch program. These other huge activity commitments are important to her as well. She would prefer to hunker down 24/7 in a studio in grad school. She loves doing that now but wants to do other things as well as an undergrad. So, this is the kind of thing to think through. Her chosen path makes sense for her preferences and personal criteria. Many who do BAs go onto very good MArch schools.

Some who do a BA and go onto MArch programs, major in something other than architecture. That is a viable path but I think it would be a little harder in some ways, unless it was in something related like studio art or engineering or something like art history. I mean it really helps to experience architecture courses enough to be able to make that kind of commitment to graduate work and also to have some skills going into it so as not to be entirely new to the field (though they do take students from other majors in undergrad). It helps to have a background in architectural history, math, physics, engineering, environmental studies, art/drawing, design, computerized design, and architecture design. After all, you do have to create a portfolio to get into grad school! You have to demonstrate interest and commitment to the field as well.

I think you could study arch engineering and go onto a MArch program. If my D had gone to Tufts, I think she may have chosen to do the major in Arch Studies and possibly done a minor in Arch Engineering but who knows. There are options there for sure. At one time she considered engineering but realized she much preferred architecture (happens to be good at math and science too). It seems to me that doing a five year engineering undergrad degree would be just too much school.

I think if you want to commit to a five year BArch, then do so...but be very prepared to commit, to focus in one area, and to have a portfolio to present. But the other alternative for you, if the option fits, is to do a BA in an arch major program. You could do engineering but again, seems like so much school. I think an arch type undergrad BA degree would be good for the reasons I gave earlier, with hopes of getting a MArch, if you do not wish to do the BArch. I see the two good options being BA in an arch type of undergrad major (or similar) + MArch or a five year BArch (which you really do not need to also do a MArch but always have that option). It is a matter of thinking through your personal preferences. My D did visit Cornell and liked it but then decided to not go the BArch route. She is extremely happy with her college and the type of education she is getting. She has supplemented her major at her school with courses at RISD, an arch study abroad program in Italy through Syracuse's Arch program, and a summer arch intensive at Harvard Graduate School of Design, and a summer internship in an architectural firm in Paris, where she is at present. She has also chosen to do an Honors Thesis in architecture. This has worked for her. It is not the right path for all people. These are the kinds of decisions only you can make. Either path will lead to becoming an architect. Students at her school have been successful in getting into very good MArch schools. Decide which sort of experience YOU want to have.

momrath

Corbus, I think your key question is what kind of undergraduate experience do you want? People change a lot from 17-18 to mid-twenties. A young person who has never been exposed to the workworld often tends to choose a profession with a name --doctor, lawyer, architect, etc – whereas the actual choices are wider but less clearly defined.

Some people know early on that they want to be architects. They get BArchs, become architects and never look back. Others explore a wide range of academic disciplines, work a bit, get MArchs, become architects and so on. Or there’s the middle road – an architecture related BA + MArch. The right path is the path that’s right for you.

I know several people who have taken longer roads to architecture and are still very successful. I know people who have BArch’s who no longer practice, choosing instead careers in marketing, museum curatorships, law, design.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t pigeon hole yourself so early on. If you think you might be a good fit with a small LAC, then do explore that route, even if it means a BA in something other than architecture studies. Plenty of LAC grads with degrees in related fields, like art studio or art history, or even seemingly unrelated fields go to top MArch programs (Yale included). I know several of my son’s classmates at Williams have done this successfully.

The major MArch programs all have open houses in the Fall. You might try to attend one and get a better idea of what kind of background they are looking for in their admits. My son’s impression was that they were not necessarily encouraging the fast track (though not discouraging it either) and that work experience was considered a plus. As you say, communication skills both verbal and visual are critical.

What is the subject that you would like to double major in? An interest in the wider world is not a bad thing at your age. You will work for 40+ years. Spending 4 years studying Shakespeare, DNA, Chinese history, etc, etc, is, to me, the best foundation you can get for any career.

Corbusi8

Soozievt, you cannot understand how much I appreciate your last post! Very insightful! I, like your daughter, want to have certain freedoms both socially and academically that an intensive B.Arch would not cater to without undue stress. I will give that some thought. You are exactly right that it is much more about me as a person than me as a prospect, sitting at a desk, filling out a form: A, B, or C. As I am sure you and many students in my position realize, sometimes it can be very difficult to understand this and to distinguish the two. Thanks again for all your help.

momrath- that's comforting to know. You inquired about my double major... well, that's sort of a grey area, but I was thinking of business or economics or something along those lines. I don't want to disappoint anyone, but I think a lot of people fail to realize that architecture can be a decent way to make a living, that it IS a business, and that businesses are in business to make money. I am not trying to suggest that such a degree is an easy ticket to financial success, but I do think that the profession as a whole could benefit from better business practices. Don't get me wrong: I am enthralled with history and theory and debate and all the intellectual facets of a career in architecture, but I am not becoming an architect so that I can impress theoriticians by arguing with Rem Koolhaas about the decay of modernism. I am trying to find a middle ground between life as a professional, a businessman, with that of an artist, a creator. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Norman Foster, who sort of exaggerates this ideal. It's ridiculous example, I know, but I think I have a valid point.

cheers

Great idea and I am so glad it worked out for you. Architecture studio is one of those experiences which will likely reveal if archtiecture is right for you or not.

I wish the proponents of the BA/MArch I would promote that option in terms of enhancements to architecture--or one's ability to practice architecture at the highest levels.

Instead they site the inability to make major decisions at eighteen. That's my least favorite line of reasoning. Unfortunately, indecisiveness is a poor quality for an architect. Architects make decisions in concrete. Those that can't--and many discover they don't have the nerve--those are the ones that leave the profession or place themselves in an administrative or academic position.

This forum needs successful BA/MArchIs to advocate that position--Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk would be a perfect example.

Also, it's not as though architects remain uneducated. Architecture is one of those professions that prides itself on a continuing pursuit of higher knowledge. My husband is as well-versed in DNA, astrophysics, geography, ancient civ, modern sculpture, art history, sports, philiosophy and science fiction as any BA. Those are his interests and he has pursued them with a vengence since leaving high school. I am as well-versed in Modern Lit, 19th C Lit, 20c Art, ancient civ, Renaissance art, modern history, modern politics and philosophy as any BA grad. I am as skilled a painter as any BFA. That's the result of my lifetime of voracious reading, painting and travelling--all of which I was urged to do in architecture school. All of which I was urged to do by all of the famous architects I studied under and/or worked for.

This is on top of our ridiculous knowledge of structural, mechanical, fire, civil, geotechnical and electrical engineering and urban planning/real estate laws.

It's not the narrow education you imagine, momrath. In fact, the opposite is true. Learning to design at a higher level necessitates a deep understanding of the behavior and history of humanity. Over several centuries of formal instruction, architecture schools have learned to teach their students how to gain that knowledge.

momrath

Cheers, Heavens, don't be so sensitive. I certainly never intended to impugn the intellectual depth of you or your husband. You, your spouse, your kids, your dog all lead very interesting lives and could be a model for any young person. [Same goes for yours truly and international business. I've managed to become healthy, wealthy and wise by following a uniquely personal career trajectory that didn't include a traditional business education.]

My point, in "listening" to the OP is that s/he IS one of those undecided teens who is trying to pinpoint a career appellation. Architecture is one several fields that appeal and s/he admits being drawn to the LAC experience as well. So, in his/her case, as in the case of other kids that I am intimately involved in, going directly from high school to a BArch program would not have been the right decision.

Learning IS is lifelong endeavor. (This coming from someone who a few months short of 60 finally finished the complete works of Henry James. )
The question whether an undergraduate education should focus on abstract thought or practical information can, to me, only be answered by the individual.

soozievt

Cheers, I don't agree that it is about an "inability to make a decision at eighteen." That is not what it was for my kid anyway. Btw, the decision was made when just turning 17 and starting applications (so her college list was actually built when still 16). But it is not like she couldn't make a decision. She DID make a decision. Her decision was to not commit to a field that there is no way she could know she wanted to spend her life doing as it is not anything she had ever studied before. Unlike English, History, Math, etc., Architecture is not a subject taught in HS (not ours anyway). So, she did lots of things to explore architecture, which I mentioned previously, plus visited many arch programs/colleges and was interested in this field. But it makes sense to take courses in it before deciding to major in it and go for a career. This is common of many college students and in fact, colleges don't make them even commit to a major until the end of freshman or soph year in many cases. It is good to have "direction" when entering college, but college is also for exploring and deciding on a future path and commiting to it. Some subjects can't be fully explored until college in more formal ways as they are not taught in HS. My kid did a bunch to explore it but had no formal studies yet. It wasn't like she was deciding between architecture and other majors. She thought she did want to go into architecture and purposely chose colleges that offered such a major. She just did not yet want to make a lifelong commitment to it at that point (by age 17). But the commitment to this major was not the ONLY reason for choosing a BA path.

I already mentioned the desire to study many subjects. My D is interested in many things. That is not a bad thing. A breadth of knowledge enhances one's work in any field. That doesn't mean that someone who did a BArch doesn't have a deep understanding of worldly knowledge. It simply means that some people desire a college education that allows for a focus area and chances to study other things. My D has done a lot of coursework related to architecture as an undergrad but she also liked studying French, politics, art, theater, etc. She has many interests. A BArch degree has a much heavier proportion of the curriculum in one area than a BA major has. This same dichotomy exists for my other D in musical theater.... a BA vs. a BFA. But she chose a BFA because there is no MFA in her field and she also had studied and been immersed in her field since nursery school and was ready to have it be her main focus in college.

Also, as I said, and you are very much aware, a BArch (or an MArch) involves countless hours in studio. My D knows this as she did the Harvard Design School summer program and worked day and night, and also has done arch courses with the BArch and MArch students at RISD. To have the bulk of her course schedule be like that (and my D who does a BFA has that same thing) doesn't work for my arch kid because she WANTS to do other things. She devotes countless hours to academics at an Ivy league school which is challenging as you know, getting As, and has chosen and been selected to do an Honors thesis which is optional (I mention this only to counter any image that she wants to slack off and not work many hours in a BArch program). But she is also on a varsity sport team that is her passion involving many hours per week and all weekend and much travel, is on a club sport team, is the student head of the undergrad arch studies major at her school, is a campus tour guide, is an advisor to freshmen, and volunteers at elem schools. These experiences are also important in her life and could not likely be done in a BArch program. Actually, when she was at the summer program at HGD, several of the Grad Arch schools had reps come to speak. She said the reps even said they looked positively at college varsity athletes and the time management involved for those who do these sorts of activities. So, anyway, the reason for choosing the BA path wasn't due to not being able to decide. It WAS a decision....a well thought out one....to choose this path that fit her goals.

You often speak of practicing architecture at the "highest levels." That may not be everyone's goal to be in the top firms of the world. It is not as if my D (or others like her) don't set high standards for themselves (she certainly does and if anything "setting high standards" is the epitome of who she is as a student and in other areas of life), but I know my D doesn't have "working at the top firms of the world" as her goal. She simply wants to become an architect and have good jobs in the field, be successful, and be happy at what she does. "Making it" need not be defined as becoming an architect in the big name firm in NYC, etc. I don't even know that she'd want to LIVE in NYC, lol. So, maybe the difference of opinions here have something to do with the end goal. Hers is to become a working and successful and happy architect. "Highest levels" has never come up as the goal.

I believe there are many successful architects (and I don't care about the biggest names in the field as that is not the goal) who did a BA + MArch degree path. Top Arch grad schools are accepting many under this path and so they must think it is a viable and successful path to a solid architecture career or they wouldn't run such programs for BA graduates. There are BA students at top MArch programs such as Harvard, Yale, MIT, Cornell, Columbia, Princeton (and many others) who go onto successful careers. It is indeed more than possible.

As I advise many students pursuing college programs for theater (and a myriad of other potential majors), the same sort of decision arises as to the appropriate path for each student....a BA or a BFA. They are very different paths suitable to different needs. Both can lead to successful careers in the field. A goal to appear on Broadway is a very narrow goal. Becoming a working actor is a realistic goal. The arch college options are the same sort of thing. Each arch educational path is a particular fit for each individual student and what they want as an educational experience. But both the BA + MArch or the five year BArch lead to a career as an architect. I believe that is the end goal for many, and not necessarily to work at the "highest level" firms. Their definition of success might not be the same as your own.

kjofkw

I disagree w/ Cheers post #13. BA Arch. does not necessarily have fewer design studios than a 5 year BArch. It depends on the program. I know at least one BA Arch program that is a pre-professional degree that has 4 full years of studio courses. In fact, once you add the 2 years masters degree to that, you'll have 6 full years of design studios -- 2 MORE than a 5 year BArch program. I believe the BS Arch program at UCincinnati also has 4 full years of studio, and is currently rated one of the top programs in the nation. You really need to verify each and every program, as well as the school's resources and studios. They are vastly different.

soozievt

I agree that there ARE some BA/BS Arch programs that have four years of studio (not my kids' school, however). I recall a lot of studio at some BA schools she looked at such as Lehigh, Penn, Yale, etc. (not sure how many years/semesters but even if two full years.....add that to three years of MArch and that adds up to five years of studio).

Corbusi8

Kjofkw, I will definitely be checking into the specifics of studio time at every school I'm considering. I haven't thought much of a BS- isn't that very similar to a BA, though?

Soozievt, my thoughts exactly.

rick12

Just a few observations from my own experience. At the GSAP at Columbia I was in a post-professional degree program, but it is a small school and I shared a lot of courses with the MArch students. The MArch's were about 50% students with a four year architecture degree from places like Penn State, Florida, Virginia, and about 50% who were English majors form Harvard, Philosophy majors from Smith, or similar majors from some other prominent LAC.

I thought I was well educated, but it is a humbling experience to be in a theory course with a philosophy major from a top LAC. There is a big gap between 8 hours a day spent in the studio and 8 hours a day spent in the library. I have been trying to close that educational gap ever since.

Some of these folks with LAC backgrounds found out that they had strong visual gifts, and they were able to close the gap on the architecture majors very quickly. Their visual gifts combined with their educational background made them very formidable architects. The ones who discovered they did not have visual gifts seemed to specialize in 'talkitecture', and either ended up teaching, writing, or becoming project managers. They still seem pretty happy to me.

There are lots of paths that can lead to a rewarding career in this industry, it just may take a while to discover where your interests and talents lie.

rick

cheers

'talkitecture'...I love it.

rick...what percentage of MArch I students 'discovered' that they had strong design talent? Do you think they discovered it--or arrived with it tucked under their arm?

The large majority of MArch I's I know/hired did not have strong natural design and presentation skills. In fact, that lack was part of their reason for postponing entry into the profession. Although their knowledge of philosophy and literature may have been deeper than the first year, artistically talented BArch student, in the end, they were unable to get the same sort of toe-hold in the design-end of the profession. Fortunately, as you say, there are many 'talkitecture' positions available across the profession. However, it can be a bitter pill to be relegated to the non-design end of business.

Plus, without inate drawing talent and inner daring, it is difficult for any student to truly enjoy the 'buzz' of 'creative' education--at the BARch or MArch I level. The competition is daunting.