mamamia

Chapman also has a top-rated film school, since you mentioned she is interested in cinematography. Chapman is in Orange, CA, about 35 miles southeast of LA (only about a two hour drive in rush hour - . It is a nice campus, has a good liberal arts program. Does have a bit of the LA feel to it insofar as the majority of the students are local/LA/Cali kids, and that is a culture all its own! One of my kids has a good friend that went there for film and she thought the film program was great and enjoyed the close proximity to the beach, but she wasn't too on board with what she called the "typical Orange County mindset" - something about materialism mixed with surfer duds! LOL. Now, all you California people please do not take offense - this was her take on it, not mine - and, she did say the film program was excellent. And, I think - but am not positive -that is a program that allows non-film majors to take a some of the film classes (unlike USC and a few others that I believe only allow film students to take film classes, due to space limitations) UT Austin also has an excellent film program and a good acting program if she would like to go Texan, and Florida offers both as well. I have to agree with WallyWorld (although it pains me to, tee hee) that it might be a stretch for her to get into a top conservatory with the lack of training she has had unless she has incredibly strong natural ability and has had a lot of really positive feedback from the NCSA people, etc. Plus, if she's kind of on the fence about acting a converstory program might not be for her as it is really intense and doesn't allow for a lot of other interests. just some random thoughts - you know your daughter better than anyone!

WallyWorld

Mamamia,

Now Wally's not that bad is he? You know you guys love to hate him

Like I said before, the more I hear about Chapman the more I like (Other than the Orange County part). One of the profs I know has successfully argued a number of cases before the Supreme Court.

I thought it was a private Christian school but nothing on thier web site (not an exhaustive search) indicated so.

Also, they do not conduct any off campus auditions. They allow submissions of video taped monologues. They also grant talent awards based on both in person and taped auditions. Seems like you would be better advised to audition on campus than submit a tape, what do you guys think?

PATSY55

I think if your going to pursue work in the entertainment industry--doesnt it make sense to count the amount of jobs availible in that industry and not the amount of police officers on hand?
20 cops in your town, but how many theatrical or film industry jobs? I live within a fifteen minute metro ride to downtown la, my husband is a below the line film worker (but still union) , and within ten houses in either direction we have at least ten neighbors who are sound people, actors, musicians etc ---
and our town was listed as the SAFEST town in America (pop 11,000).
And we are all "LA type" people.

SeaShells29

Hi,

Does anyone out there know anything about the theater programs at Pace, Rutgers, UConn or Montclair State? How difficult are these colleges to get into on a talent level and on an academic level? Would any of them be considered safety schools? My D is starting to freak out about her safety school and we were planning to hopefully visit all of these colleges this weekend. Since this is so last minute, we might not be able to book a formal tour. Do you think it's still worthwhile to go anyway just to look around? I doubt very much that we'd be able to speak to anyone in the theater departments. Thanks so much for any info you can provide for any of these colleges!

WallyWorld

That doesn’t sound like a complete waste of time but not very optimal for sure. You could gauge the “feel” of the school but not the program. So, if accepted you would have to go back for another visit.

Rutgers certainly would not qualify as a “safety” if we are talking BFA acting. In the acting world it has been referred to as an “ivy”.

WallyWorld

Okay, most of the top schools are pretty upfront about the fact that everything rides on the audition. Since talent is what they are after, why not, that’s okay with us.

What then do you guys think about the role of essays and letters of recommendation? If they say it’s all about the audition should you really sweat the other stuff? Are there programs that you really need to put a great effort into essays and letters? We are familiar with highly competitive programs with no audition requirement where the essays and letters are hugely important but what about this world?

SeaShells29

In my experience with my older D who auditioned for musical theater, it seems in retrospect that the main criterion for admittance was the audition. Everything else was superfluous. Even though she had a very good essay, great GPA, very good SAT's, five wonderful letters of recommendation from theater and voice teachers, a packed theater resume including several roles in regional professional theater, she didn't get into any of the colleges she auditioned at except for University of Hartford where she got into the school, but not musical theater. The majority of the colleges she auditioned at are considered MT ivys. I believe that if she had applied for a different, non-audition major at these schools she probably would have gotten in.

On the other hand, her best friend got into Tisch CAP 21 with NO professional or community theater experience; she had simply done high school theater (with my daughter) but was extremely talented. She stood out in terms of her acting ability. Her other stats were similar to my daughter's. So I believe that she must have "wowed" the judges in her audition. She applied to the same MT ivy schools as my D, but I'm not exactly sure how many of the others she got into.

I had read on CC that the judges really don't care all that much what you did before in theater; that it all comes down to those 4-5 minutes. I didn't want to believe it but it's true. I thought that my daughter's theater resume was very impressive, but I don't think they even cared about that. It's similar to going on an audition for a play in terms of the fact that it all comes down to the subjective opinions of the casting directors and what they are looking for AT THAT VERY MOMENT.

So, I'm not saying to totally disregard the essay or other application requirements because I think that if you put too little effort into your essay or don't take the time to seek out people who can provide you with excellent letters of recommendation, it could possibly hurt your chances of getting accepted. I believe that the admissions committe would be able to tell if you whipped off an essay in 15 minutes and might interpret that as not really caring enough about the whole application proess.

To wrap it up, in my opinion the audition is THE deciding factor in the top MT and theater programs but the other items could perhaps be the determining factors between two equally talented candidates.

BiGismama

SeaShells29 said:

"So, I'm not saying to totally disregard the essay or other application requirements because I think that if you put too little effort into your essay or don't take the time to seek out people who can provide you with excellent letters of recommendation, it could possibly hurt your chances of getting accepted. I believe that the admissions committe would be able to tell if you whipped off an essay in 15 minutes and might interpret that as not really caring enough about the whole application proess.

To wrap it up, in my opinion the audition is THE deciding factor in the top MT and theater programs but the other items could perhaps be the determining factors between two equally talented candidates."


I absolutely agree with the statements above, and I'd go a step further. The "other items" (often including interview as well) are often the determining factors for merit and/or talent scholarships and for that reason alone should not be "sloughed off". From what I observed, the audition is certainly paramount but the "whole package" is important too!

soozievt

I already addressed this topic where you posted it on the MT Forum. But to add in here and in relation to what Seashells wrote....the application and essays and recs DO matter but FIRST you have to be someone they want from the audition itself. Those other pieces/factors can't replace a so so audition. But many pass "muster" in the audition and due to that, need to ALSO have a good package on the other aspects of college admissions. Also, there are some schools where you must be admitted to the college first, in order to audition. Further, I also addressed in my posts on the MT thread that the application materials are a factor in selection for scholarships.

Remember when a school, like many BFA schools, only accept 4-9% of those who audition, there are likely MORE than 9% who are talented enough in the audition to be strongly considered. Other factors, however, may set one apart from the other. Those other pieces need to be up to snuff as well. This isn't the case so much at a low selectivity college where academic admisions are quite easy for many and also isn't a big deal for a conservatory like BOCO, but for many BFA programs affiliated with fairly or more selective admissions colleges, it does matter.

I want to add that I observe many people who build a list of theater colleges to apply to because the colleges offer a BFA in theater, as if every kid could have the same list. However, that is NOT the case at all. A person's academic type of qualifications will dictate the list, not just artistic talent. I have worked with many students whose academic package is weak and their original college list is UNREALISTIC but they simply picked out good colleges with excellent BFA programs as if that is all there is to it. Nuh uh. Having the RIGHT college list for YOU is CRUCIAL. The students with whom I am working have very different theater college lists and one of the major reasons has to do with their qualifications being very varied from one kid to another. Some kids have NO chance at certain BFA programs due to their academic profile. If people think that just having a good audition is going to get them into ANY BFA program, they are sadly mistaken. I do know of kids who have great artistic talent who got shut out of most BFA programs due to their application package being too weak. I know several, for example, who only could get into BOCO, Hartt or Roosevelt, but not other BFAs because the rest of their profile outside of the audition was too weak. (not knocking those schools whatsoever but the academic qualfications there are much lower than other places......they are good programs of course...my own kid got into BOCO just so you know I am not putting it down!) The "other stuff" truly matters, ONCE you also are attractive to them in the audition of course. Also some BFA programs are located in fairly selective colleges, whereas some are in universities that are pretty easy to get into and so essays and such may not be too big of a deal at a school like those.

mamamia

Regarding a resume showing lots of community theatre experience, etc., I have heard that a lot of schools actually prefer to get a student that, while certainly talented, hasn't been extensively trained because then they just have to break a lot of bad habits! I was told that was one reason most of the top programs do not allow students to be in any productions the first two years, as they are concentrating on untraining/retraining the actors in the methods they embrace. So, if that is in fact the case, that also supports the theory that the audition is the most important factor to get accepted into the theatre program as opposed to previous experience. But, again, as stated by others, many theatre programs require the student to also meet all academic standards required for general admission into the university itself.

soozievt

Mamamia, you are right that the theater resume is not the key and the audition is far more important than the production experiences, etc. However, through training and through theater production work, often a person improves their skills and stage presence, etc. Due to a strong background in training and production work, even in previous audition experiences to get cast in the past, a person may be a stronger candidate in the audition. They have attained skills and experience which can help in the long run, not so much on paper but in how those experiences have shaped their ability and skills that are revealed in an audition.

Most kids whom I personally know who have gotten into BFA programs, have done a bunch of training (singing, acting, and dance if MT, or mostly acting if going for BFA Acting, though even a lot of those kids have a musical background too), a bunch of shows and a bunch of auditions. Someone CAN be admitted with little training and very little production experience. But often it is those who have some background, training, and experience who have attained the skills to give a good audition. That's been my observations. However, talent is talent no matter what you have done in the past.

Then of course, on top of the audition, there is the rest of the application to be admitted.

briansteffy

I (parent) teach at a small liberal arts college that has a tuition exchange program with many small liberal arts colleges (also Syracuse and Fordham). He is interested in majoring in drama/theatre (acting). He is likely not to pursue a career in acting. While Syracuse and Fordham have good reputations (likely to apply to Syracuse), we are looking closely at smaller liberal arts colleges. In particular, we are looking at the following 'tuition exchange' colleges. Any knowledge re: theatre/drama, etc.
-Sewanee/Univ. of the South
-Centre College
-Muhlenberg
-Wittenberg
-Otterbein (I know that this has a good Dept., but it does not have the broader reputation of the above and below)
-Hampden Sydney
-Beloit

dancersmom

IMHO, Otterbein has the best theatre department of the bunch. They offer BFA degrees in Acting, musical theatre, design tech, and musical theatre with a dance emphasis. They also offer a BA in theatre.

Muhlenberg has a good non-audition program. Many of our student posters on the musical theatre (MT) thread have used Muhlenberg as a safety school.

If you do message searches on the names Otterbein and Muhlenberg on this thread and the musical theatre thread, you'll find lots of information about theses two schools. The chairman of the theatre department at Otterbein is a regular poster who goes by the name Doctorjohn.

Centre College is known as a top echelon liberal arts school. They offer a BA degree in theatre which requires only 36 hours of coursework in the major. No BFA program is offered.

I have heard that Wittenberg has a well respected theatre program, but I have no hard facts.

The other 3 schools on your list I know nothing about.

Something that I believe is very important for you and your son to consider is whether or not he wants to do a BFA program in acting or if he would prefer to do a BA degree. Doctorjohn has developed a questionnaire to help students decide which type of degree best suits them. Follow this link:
http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/ then click on BA vs BFA.

It sounds like your son is probably interested in doing a BA program since you say he is not likely to pursue a career in acting. However, if your son wants a BFA program, then Otterbein is the only small college on your list that fits the bill.

I would suggest taking a look at the curricula of the schools your son is considering and see which degree programs offer courses he interested in taking. If you can find the time, visits to the schools would be very instructive. Try to see a production to get an idea of the school's talent pool. Talk to current students and faculty. Do a campus tour to help your son get a feel for the campus. Your son must also consider the academics outside of the theatre department. To my knowledge, Centre has the best academic reputation. Your S will need to weigh the theatre department offerings against the overall academic atmosphere of each school.

I hope this helps a bit.

WallyWorld

SeaShells29 said;

Gees SeaShells I am sorry to hear that. I am sure your family was/is disappointed. That’s a lot of effort and money to not have the results you desired. I don’t have any words of wisdom but I appreciate your candor and I just wish to tell your D that I am proud of her for making the effort no matter what the outcome.

What you have said is logical and falls in line with how other very competitive fields work. If you happen to be a talented HS wide receiver and xyx school with lots of money is looking for a wide receiver they don’t give a rip about your essay. Yes they need to make an assessment of wether they think you can survive the academic requirements (usually artificially low) of the school but the bottom line is just that. Letters of recommendation, Yawn!! Do you have what they think they are looking for or not? Next year they may be looking for a QB so if your kid is a super talented guard they wish him good luck!

The MT thing seems to be much more random than straight acting which our D is pursuing yet I think your analysis of the situation was right on. Soozietvt seems to have the best interests of her students in mind but she, and others are biased. She/they are not going to come on and tell us that the other parts of their services that they charge for are “superfluous”

She is correct though in her point that a resume is not valuable for what it says rather the experiences garnered through building it that lends itself to giving a stronger performance.

Mamamia

Most community theaters that I know of don’t do any training. They just put on shows. There certainly is direction but no training. And, bad habits can come from bad direction but its not like they are being trained poorly. I think top schools are looking for two things: Perceived talent, and one other thing. What do you think that is?

soozievt

Wally, what I stated has NOTHING to do with any services. What I stated is common knowledge about admissions. As you saw on the MT thread, ALL4FSU, who works in the BFA theater dept. at Florida State (a well regarded BFA in MT program) chimed in and concurred. What I had stated doesn't conflict AT ALL with what Seashells is saying. She is absolutely right....a kid could have stellar stats, recs, and essays and not get in if they were not selected in the audition. Stellar applications and great academic records do not make up for an audition whatsoever. The audition comes first and counts for a certain percentage (which varies) for admissions decisions at each BFA program. AT most BFA programs, it does not count 100% of the admissions decision. So, if the school has ten slots available and 15 kids who they feel are exactly the talent they would like to have in the program, other factors can be a tip factor since there are more talented kids than slots available. The admissions office is going to want the student to be able to meet THEIR admissions criteria as well. At some schools, that bar is fairly low and so an essay or rec is not as big of a deal. Many BFA programs are located in schools with moderate, or in some cases, very selective admissions. The school is going to want students who can make it academically since the BFA students still have to take liberal arts classes. Further, their work ethic, personality traits, and so on (which are revealed in essays and recs) speak to the kind of student who can handle the rigors and intensity of a BFA program. As mentioned elsewhere on the MT Forum, scholarships are given out by many BFA programs (my D was offered these by six programs) and there are many factors that go into that decision, as well.

This has NOTHING to do with services. My post was exactly my thoughts on this topic that I had as a parent of a student applying for BFA admissions and EVERYTHING I know about the process. If your child does not opt to put her all into her applications, that's her choice. I can't imagine in a very competitive process, not putting one's best foot forward in every piece that the committee will view. I was in a one to one meeting with the head of admissions for UMich's BFA in MT program who talked a LOT about looking at the rigor of the curriculum the student chose in HS, the essays, and the recs. Some of these BFA programs have four or more essays to write. Some have extra essays beyond the college's admissions essays. As I mentioned on another thread, I can tell that things mentioned in my D's essays and her recs had to have played a part in her being selected as a Tisch Scholar. Some qualities that they were looking for had to do with things beyond the audition and her numbers (though all those things also counted).

If you wish to believe that the application materials are superflous, go right ahead. As well, the issue is not the same when comparing admissions to a BFA in a university such as Pace, Hartt, or a conservatory like BOCO as they are when looking at BFA programs at schools such as NYU, UMich, Syracuse, UMiami, and so on.

As you can see when discussing this topic on the thread on the MT Forum where you also posted it, many parents of current students also concurred as to the importance of the full package, not just the audition. The fab audition is a must. No essay or SAT score can replace it. But you can bet there are more students who have a fab audition than places available. Just of the talented kids that I know who have gotten into the TOP BFA programs in the country, they did NOT get into every single one (though they got into several) and so you can't tell me that some kid who is at CCM or UMich, for example, who was rejected at some other top programs, was not "good enough" or "talented enough". There are not enough slots for every very talented student at any particular school. Usually a very talented person will get in somewhere, and often more than one school. Schools are making some subjective decisions and they are accepting PEOPLE and there is a lot to a person beyond just their talent, even though their talent is a HUGE factor in the decision and the talent can't be replaced by other stats. By the way, at NYU/Tisch, which perhaps your D is not appylying, academic review counts for 50% of the decision and it is not like they take the highest SAT and GPA and rank off the pile, and indeed kids with lower stats can get in over kids with higher stats but who have other things in their application that make them attractive candidates. Since the admissions decision at most BFA programs is NOT based 100% on the audition, and since there are more kids with the requisite talent that the school finds attractive in the audition itself, what do you think they then do to decide? The rest of the percentage of the decision (which varies school to school) is going to look at the "other stuff". Hope that other stuff looks like a lot of effort went into it, as well as that the student can write, and that their personality and other attributes revealed in the essays and recommendations can reveal what they are seeking.

I have a niece applying to BFA and BA programs in acting this year. She is a top student, also a NM semi finalist. She can apply to some schools like UCLA, USC, BU, Northwestern, Brown, NYU, UMich and many others because she has the rest of the package that is needed. I know other very talented actors whose application would not cut it at those schools. Those schools are going to have NUMEROUS kids with high stats like hers and the talent in the audition. When having to decide between one or another when the final cuts are made, all the other "factors" that come across on an application come into play. Something to think about. I guess it depends on the level of schools your child is trying for. I'm talking of any colleges/universities ranging from somewhat to very selective. This is not much of an issue at a school where the selectivity academically is quite low, or at a stand alone conservatory.

Feel free to go about the admissions process as you like. Talk to some adcoms and see what they say. Every single one I have spoken with mentions what I am saying here. My post is meant to HELP share what I know of the process.