soozievt

Seashells also wrote in her "conclusion" the same point....so, as I said, we agreed, and these are not contrary opinions as Wally implies:

SeaShells29

When I said that the supplementary application materials were "superfluous," I suppose I should have used the word "secondary"....secondary to the audition is. I thought that my D's impessive portfolio would help her get into the MT Ivy's but it didn't matter because it basically boiled down to the fact that the audition was the first hurdle to pass.

However, with D2 I'm still making sure that she writes a great essay, gets the best letters of recommendation possible, and prepares a great application. She also went to an SAT tutor to improve her SAT scores. So, I do realize that these other factors are important as well.

Of course, she is also going to a monologue coach to prepare for the audition side.

Wally World - Thanks for your compassionate words. Yes, it was extremely devastating for both my D and me when she didn't get into any of the MT Ivy's. However, I learned a BIG lesson from that experience which will benefit D2 (I hope!). With D1 we put so much energy and research into the top MT Ivy's that we didn't have enough time to research or apply to the less competitive schools. This time around, D2 will be applying to a few of those non-audition, less selective schools in addition to some top programs. I have to give credit and thanks to Soozievt for suggesting this to me.

As parents it is so difficult for us to be objective about our kids and that's the problem I ran into with D1. I knew she was talented, but I just didn't realize how many talented kids there were out there.

BTW, D1 is in a BFA theater program at a public college in our state and is quite happy there. She has decided to pursue her master's degree so that she can teach drama. I do believe that everything happens for a reason, although initially we might not understand.

Lastly, in answer to your question about "what is the second thing they're looking for," I'd like to venture a guess. I would say it's the person's "look," and I think that the "look" that they are looking for is probably different at each school. I also think they are looking for a person whose looks would provide them the versatility to play a number of roles. This is just my opinion. (My second guess to your questions would be "drive/passion.") Am I right with either of these answers? :-)

soozievt

Seashells, bringing up "drive/passion" is a point that dovetails with this whole topic. Drive and passion may not be as evident in an audition. However, such attributes often can be shown in essays and recommendations. I venture to say that they are interested in those who have drive and passion and are appropriate candidates to do an intensive BFA, where theater is not just a passing interest or something they wish to try. It is a huge commitment in a BFA and it is not appropriate for all people. Just reading posts for over four years here and also talking to students, there are some students where a BFA path is appropriate and for some others a BA truly meets their desires and interests far better. Often, I meet students who think they want a BFA but every probing question I ask reveals answers more suited to a BA and I have helped them create a list of schools far more suitable for them.

While not the same issue, of course, but you also bring up the importance of a well balanced list in terms of both academic selectivity as well as artistic selectivity (the latter having something to do with the level of the applicant pool for that school). The creation of the list is critical in that it be individualized to each student.

As far as looks.....that relates to the fact that a program is buidling a class when it admits students. So, they don't want all boys or all girls. If for MT, they dont want all sopranos and no belters. They don't want all baritones and no tenors. They will want some competent dancers but not every applicant must be one necessarily. They will want some ingenue types and some character types. They don't want all blondes who are 5'8" tall. Just like casting, they are building a diverse group of actors, who in fact, will make up the casts of their shows.

So, lots of little factors come into play when admitting students to programs that are highly selective, and where there are MORE qualified and talented candidates than slots available. While one can't easily change their look or type, they can put their all into the application materials, and solicit effective recommendations, so that when push comes to shove and their audition passes with flying colors, that the rest of the materials will show them in an attractive light enough to make the "admit" pile. BFA programs have their pick of LOTS and LOTS of talented kids and why not do everything you can to show oneself on all the materials so that they get to know you and like what they see.

WallyWorld

Soozievt

I believe that FSU and their representatives are of the highest credibility but they are also biased. What are they going to say???

The first two sentences of your post are all the further that I got though. You are going to need to make your points in fewer than 1000 words for me to be willing read them.

WallyWorld

I wrote
This is based on research I have done talking with actors and directors, some involved in academia and some not. You are right the "look" is important; however I have thought of that as part of the audition process as opposed to the interview. There are generally two parts to the audition so there must be a reason for that. In The monologues/songs, they are looking for talent and if they see talent they are gauging the look, I believe. This is a concept that I have had half a dozen successful actor/directors tell me. They say that they can tell 15 seconds into a monologue if someone can act or not and they spend the remaining minute and a half thinking about where they would put them with “look” being a big part of that.

Dr John has masterfully explained “look” in the past with regard to program acceptance and if anyone knows how to bring that previous post here it might be of help. Absent that..if a certain program is going to accept 20 students and they admitted 10 blonde haired blue eyed girls who were 5’9” with the same vocal range it wouldn’t work very well. Not good for the program, not good for those 10 girls. I also think they can gauge passion to a degree in the monologue. You can see the spark if its there.

After talent and way more important than the essay, I believe, they are trying to gauge a unique set of personal characteristics, beyond talent, that I will just call, “attitude”. Remember my research is base on straight drama not MT. Do you think you deserve eggs benedict delivered to your door with fresh cut flowers every morning or are you okay with building an ensemble where sometimes the good of the group needs to be ahead of the best interests of yourself? When the director/auditioner/instructor asks you to bend, are you un-pliable or are you willing try that path. Because, talent that is un-trainable or resists training is something that these schools do not want.

fishbowlfreshman

Wally,
I think I agree with Susan on this one, so I’ll write with brevity. While the audition will certainly be the most important factor, the essays will have a chance of being a deciding factor at the schools that require them – as could grades and the whole application package in general.

Put yourself in the position of the auditor. You have two prospective students who are essentially equal talent-wise, have similar looks, and either would fit the ensemble you're putting together. One has obviously put some thought into the essay while the other seems to have hacked out something "half fast." Who do you admit? Or … One has an outstanding academic record and the other's is less stellar. Who gets in? It may not be the most important factor, but it could certainly be a tiebreaker. Always remember that the good theatre schools see many more talented candidates than they can admit and they’re looking for something that separates the one they take from the others. If the school asks for it, I think it’s safe to assume that it will count. It's probably safe to assume that everything counts.

wrighersh

Are posts to this thread supposed to be limited in length? I got something from all of soozievt's post, above, and didn't think it was too long as you did, WallyWorld. (And why did you then post something even longer?)

jbrown

fishbowl
i tried to pm and email, but no go!
any chance you 'd reveal where you ended up for this year- I have followed your posts and journey and have always found you to be extremely well spoken (written?). You also seem to know your stuff- wow

My son is a freshman at a conservatory studying acting- i wonder if you might be where he is!!!!

WallyWorld

Fishbowl,

I hear you and I did not mean to infer they had no bearing. Rather to point out the difference between as you say them having a "chance" of influencing an admittance as contrasted with say an application to Stanford Law School where there is no "chance" about it. Certainly in a case where there is a "tie" on talent and look they would make a difference.

While thats all on paper (sorry for the cheap pun) what has been your experience and the other students that you know that have been accepted to top programs. After you auditioned did they need to read your letters to make a decision?

How is school going? Any surprises or thoughts or words of wisdom about your current environment?

Wringhersh,

if you enjoy the same point being made over and over again and then posts to support those points then have at it. I am not sure if your word counter is functioning though as the largest post I have made is 350 words. Others on this thread have multiple 1000 plus word posts.

fishbowlfreshman

It’s hard to say about other students because we don’t talk about old grades too much. LOL Everybody certainly seems to be pretty bright. Banish that myth about idiot savants at conservatories ... I do know that at my old h/s, the drama department consistently had the highest cumulative GPA at the school and the kids that got in the top programs were generally pretty good academic students. I don’t know at what point the admissions people read the letters. It was just waitsy wait wait on their letters and calls after the auditions.

No real surprises at school. It’s work, work, and work some more but it’s energizing rather than draining. Meh … We’ll see how I feel about that in December.

soozievt

Wally, you say that admissions officers who say flat out that they read every application and every piece and the importance of those pieces are "biased"? Why do you think they even ask for essays and recs if they do not matter? Why do they even ask for transcripts, GPA, rank, and SATs? You say it is ALL based on the audition. Did you realize that at some schools, one must be admitted first to the college before even being invited to audition? Then at other schools, after the auditors have a pile of students they are interested in, the admissions committee reviews the applicants and chooses who meets the other criteria for admissions? Do you realize that some BFA programs require ADDITIONAL essays and other materials beyond the required applications for regular applicants? Do you realize that BFA programs that exist within a university or college (unlike Juilliard, UArts, BOCO and more stand alone conservatories), require admissions to the college and in fact, SOME BFA programs exist at universities that range from moderate to very selective? (some don't, however) Do you realize that there is a percentage which varies from school to school (could be as little as 10% at CMU to as much as 50% at NYU/Tisch) of the admissions decision that is NOT the audition? And for that percentage of the admissions decision, there are MORE students who have the stats to get in academically (and have passed the audition) than slots available? And in that case, do you realize that other factors are part of that percentage of the decision....recommendations, extracurriculars, personal traits, essays, etc. ? This is basic Admissions 101.

BFA programs are highly competitive. I do not know which ones are on your D's list. Perhaps she is applying to schools that are stand alone conservatories....Juilliard, NCSA and others and the academic review isn't as big of a factor. Is she applying to UCLA? UMich? Tisch? Syracuse? USC? BU? CMU? FSU? Emerson? I can tell you that at many of these schools, this stuff WILL matter. It won't get you in, but if you don't have it on TOP of the audition, good luck. There are far more academically qualified AND talented kids than slots available. Kids who I know who now attend the TOP BFA programs in the land, as well as kids who have won National awards, state awards and so on, did not get into every BFA program on their list and they were obviously "good enough" as they are now attending top programs (and in some cases have won top awards in the field). So, when schools individually do not take every kid who is capable to do their program, you have a situation where everything counts. Sure, a highly talented kid will get into somewhere, but nobody can count on getting into them all (or which specific ones) for sure. Every poster here has supported these notions though it seems you discount it (saying I'm suggesting essays are important to garner services...as if that is the main thing I even do, or ALL4FSU is biased as she works in the BFA department). I cannot imagine heeding your advice to slack off or assume that the application was NOT read. Talk to any admissions officer, any college admissions counselor, or many who have been through the process (I know quite a number of very talented kids who got rejected at BFA schools where the academics/application does matter but were able to get into a stand alone convervatory or perhaps a BFA that exists in a very NON selective college) and you will learn that you are mistaken, particularly at competitive and selective colleges.

I already told you that I can tell that my own child's essays were read by the nature of some scholarships and honors/scholars she received and while she didn't even KNOW these awards and money were possible when she applied and did her application to the best of her efforts without any of this in mind, it is apparent that lots of what was revealed in essays and recs contributed to her being chosen to receive these things. I have since read the criteria for selection and often it has included artistic talent, academics, and leadership. Leadership can't be shown in the SAT scores, transcript, or audition. It sure can on the Activity Resume, recommendations, and essays.

Another example that doesn't apply to others' situations specifically, but is an example of these materials being read, is that my D was an early graduate (after her junior yr. of HS) and early graduates' applications are scrutinized more than regular applicants (a known fact in college admissions) and my daughter also wrote a supplementary statement (beyond her required essays) as to her rationale for early graduation and her readiness and I know that her teacher recs and guidance counselor reports also commented on this issue. These HAD to have been read because adcoms take extra care in evaluating the applications of early graduates. That is an example but other kids also have other things in their paper work.

By the way, applicants to UMich's BFA in MT program have to send an extensive repertoire document in with the applications. The adcom there said they examine every essay, the rigor of the curriculum, stats, and these extra artitistic documents and recs to decide who to invite to audition. I don't think she had any reason to make that up.

Further, many BFA programs are in colleges where the BFA student will have to take some liberal arts courses and if the college is a selective one, the admissions office will want the student to be able to be successful in these courses. As well, BFA programs themselves are intensive and hard core. It takes a certain kind of student to hack them, not ONLY talent. I have met with some kids who I do not believe could handle the rigors of a BFA program by the nature of the kind of student that they are. BFA programs are admitting people, not JUST how well they act or sing.

Now, you are validating that when there is a "tie" between some equally talented candidates for a selective BFA, that the application itself may make a difference. So, if that is true (and it is), do you honestly believe when there are ten slots available (just an example....but it is not the number so much, but more the admit rate of between 2-9% at most top BFAs, for MT anyway), that there are only TEN applicants who they LOVED at the audition and feel are at the level and have the potential to be in their program? Did you think that this so called "tie" is unusual or only between TWO candidates? Hardly! I doubt that there are only ten kids (or how many slots are open) a program really want in all of the auditions.

I can tell you that at CMU (and others of course) there is a waitlist. They are interested in the kids on the waitlist if not all the offered slots are taken in their yield. My D was on the priority waitlist at CMU for Acting. She has a friend in CMU's BFA for MT who got in off the waitlist another year. The kids on the waitlist had to pass muster if there was room depending on yield. They are willing to accept them if there is room, in other words. So, there were more than 10 (Or whatever the number may be depending on the school) who they are interested in, but can only take ten. Think about it.

Again, I don't know your D's list and her programs may be stand alone conservatories or exist in much less selective universities or colleges (outside the BFA part). I have no idea why you think an admissions officer is biased in telling you this, a college counselor, current BFA students and parents of current BFA students would have any reason to steer you wrong about this. Perhaps you know something we don't?

Further, I believe you have been asked to refrain from commenting on others' posting styles and stick to the ideas. If you don't like certain posts, feel free, as you have, to not read them. I, as well as others, volunteer to help and share what we know for those going through the process. Many of us are parents or students who have been through it already. Some of us are even trained in this field. Some even work at these college programs. You have posed some questions and people are volunteering to answer them to HELP. If you don't care for my posts or the posts of others, ignore them, but please refrain from discussing the poster or his/her writing style, spelling or word count. CC has no rules about spelling or word count. They do have rules about courtesy, personal attacks, and posting about the personal qualities of other posters. Thank you.

raphael

When people say the bfa 'ivies' what are they referring to? Please list colleges and programs. I'd really appreciate it. Cost: What 'ivies' are out there that are affordable and/or which offer good financial aide and scholarships?

Btw, I think it's discourteous to suggest someone have a 1000 word limit to their email. If you don't like it, don't read it--but then don't announce to everyone you're not reading it, either. And don't pretend it's about the word limit, because you know it's not--it's about attacking another valid opinion on the site. You know the old rule--treat other people the way you want to be treated. Enough said.

Raphael

WallyWorld

What CC does is their business but my advice is that post size limitations would improve the forum. Bill Clinton writing and Op-Ed for the NY Times is not given a blank check. Having written professionally numerous times I certainly have complained about piece size limits yet they are in place because they increase readership and succinctness

jasmom

"Out of respect for both moderators and policies, discussion of moderator actions and forum policies is welcomed via e-mail; these issues are off-topic for the forums."

babar

NCSA absolutely considers academic review for admission - not necessaily in terms as narrow as GPA and SATs, but they want "smart actors" and seek these type of kids. I believe that many theatre admissions people are looking for intangibles which they attempt to glean from the whole gesalt of what they get in the form of the multiple essays, recs, lists, etc. - they want kids with certain character traits that may shine through.