BrownEyesMom

Yes, my sense is that undergrad education at the U has vastly improved since the 1980s. The physical plant has also improved – buildings renovated, outdoor spaces better maintained, unifying signage added, etc. We were pleasantly surprised when we toured campus in the summer of 2005. Tuition has gone way up, even for in-state students – however the Guthrie-BFA program would still be a terrific bargain if your son gets in.

Getting in is the trick, of course – you’re wise to assume rejection. It’s extremely competitive (although slightly less so for boys than for girls, since more girls audition), and a high proportion of the current BFA freshmen class attended performing arts high schools (8 out of 22 are from just two schools, Governor’s School in South Carolina and Interlochen in Michigan).

Minnesota was the only school my D applied to last year – she auditioned for BFA and didn’t get in, a huge blow since she had worked with both BA and BFA faculty in an intensive program the prior summer and was a clear standout among the students in the intensive. At the time she was crushed, but she decided to try a year in the BA program. It’s been personally difficult, especially living in the same dorm as the BFA kids and seeing them all the time (although her worst moment was running into one of the BFA faculty on campus and having him ask why she hadn’t applied to the BFA program: “I did, Kenny.”) However, within the BA program she’s gotten lots of accolades, plus a lead in the first show she tried out for and a role in this winter’s mainstage production, so that has helped to restore her confidence. She’s grown up a lot this year and is now sure she wants to be in a BFA program even if it means going far from home, family, and boyfriend.

Hope your son will be one of the lucky ones! Of course talent counts too, but at that level it’s a given – there are lots of intangibles, hard to know exactly what they’re looking for.

Frenchlaw

Thanks to all for comments - we'll visit U of Minn if my S gets admitted. He doesn't mind the cold, fortunately. His GPA is relatively pathetic, but he has the 30+ACT, which should help him as an out-of-stater. His HS is particularly competitive - on a college campus, taught by adjunct faculty, no AP courses but college level classes instead. He'll graduate with 40 credits, accepted at SUNY and CUNY. That may help put his grades in perspective. I've got my fingers crossed!

NotMamaRose

An incredibly talented young man I know was accepted to the Minnesota/Guthrie BFA last year, but was not accepted academically. (He was also accepted to several other top BFA acting programs, and he has enrolled at one of those.) He attended an arts high school.

briansteffy

Frenhlaw: I used to fly a lot between Minneapolis and Philly. I swear that 30 degrees in PA felt colder than zero in Minn. As they say in Minn. There are two seasons; winter and road repair.
That is an excellent ACT. Has he looked at Tulane?

Frenchlaw

Briansteffy: As someone who went to university in Philly for 7 years, I understand how cold 30 degrees can seem there. There is a weird sort of microclimate.

My wife is really down on Tulane, some of it going back to when we were kids. She questions the quality of the academics (with the exception of certain departments), and since my S will not be enrolled in a BFA program, the general academic program of the university is of key importance. For example, Wisconsin seems to have a decent, but not great, BA theatre program. Its academics are as good as at the best private universities, though class size may be bigger and facilities a little less impressive. Same goes for U of Texas in Austin.

I understand that Tulane is supposed to have become very strong in general academics. But what do I know; I'm discouraging the kid from looking at Tufts.

As a kid who blew off high school (and with an ACT over 30, he should not have), I am hoping that if the classes are stimulating enough, his brain might finally get kicked into gear. I'd like hiim to be an actor who can speak intelligently about a wealth of subjects, and not one that sounds like Tom Cruise.

Frenchlaw

New choice: Does anyone know anything about the program at Wake Forest?

I'm starting to realize that with a BA in theatre arts, my S will have to do graduate school or conservatory in any event.

lohiaaditya

What do you think of the theatre program in virginia commonwealth university?

briansteffy

lohiaaditya. Having communicated with you on a number of occasions, VCU may be a good option. Another BFA program that you may want to look at in VA is Longwood University, southwest of Richmond (I went to a small VA men's college many decades ago). Longwood was an upscale women's college that the state took over. The campus is nice (5 mile from beautiful Hampden-Sydney - one of two all-men's colleges), tuition is cheap (so is VCU), and the school has less than 5k students. My sense is that many BFA students also get their teacher certification. VCU's program is larger and more likely to allow for the study of film/acting. VCU is an urban campus, though not in the same way that BU or NYU are - Richmond's OK, but it's not Boston.

Frenchlaw: I know Wake, but I never ever thought of Wake as a school to go to for theater. It's a beautiful, class-act campus. Read NCARTS threads re: comments about Winston-Salem. Wake is very conservative. Greeks rule. It's quite different from the Big Ten schools(culture and ideological leanings). I see it as an under-rated school, living in the shadows of Duke and Vandy.

briansteffy

Frenchlaw: I raed back over some of your posts and I think that I was incorrectly assuming that your S is looking at enineering programs, with some theatre on the side. Are you looking instead at good BA theater programs?

RE: boys/young men these days. Yea, there are high achieving boys out there, but there is someting going on these days with the gender. The Chronicle of Higher Education has run a few stories on the problem. They seem to be self-absorbed and highly cynical, sometimes 'kynical' (i.e., the darkest side of the Comedy Channel). My best students are typically female and the basket cases male. My son was one of these boys. Then he discovered theater. There is now passion, goal-oriented behavior, and Type-A behavior. Lasy night at dinner he thanked me for allowing him to pursue his passion. My wife was encouraging him to get a BSN and I was hoping that he would play football at the college level. My S's HS performance was embarassing is freshman year. He was a 'B' student his Sophomore year. But, since then he has been straight 'A's'. I wish that he had the ACT score that your S has.
I was looking at a number of BA (private ad public) programs in theater. If this is what your S is looking at? I might have some suggestions. We are still open to the idea of attending a place like Bennington, Drew, or Franklin & Marshall (all test optional schools), assuming he gets a tution exchange scholarship, retaining his college fund for an MFA program. There are some well priced state universities, if one is willing to venture south or west. Georgia has a good BA program, and it is, in my mind one of the most beautiful campuses in the country. I also taught at Kentucky. It converted its BFA program into a BA program. The campus is not that nice (sort of like UMASS, but Lexington is a neat small city amidst beautiful horse farms. Our BFA safeties (they also have BA programs) are West Virginia, Wyoming, and Montana, all less expensive than going to a PA school as a resident.
Then again, didn'y you say that your S prefers an urban campus? You might want to look at Catholic U. (safety issues, but good BA theatr program), Pitt, Butler (Indianapolis is a nice city)

Frenchlaw

Briansteffy: Your insight is invaluable. It would help if my S were a little more motivated, but I guess that all of us parents are more involved in the application process than we ever thought we'd be (though you are in this boat for different reasons).

I'll keep you all posted. Still have only managed to complete the application for the BA program at U of Minn.

rocknboy1

I am just wondering if anybody on the board knows how good/renowned Vassar's B.A. in Drama is? I am looking for a great B.A. program. I know Northwestern is good, but I live on the East Coast and do not want to go to Chicago. I know that Vassar is academically better than Muhlenberg, but how to their Drama programs compare?

briansteffy

There was a thread about Vassar vs Muhlenberg a while back. I voiced an opinion back then, perhaps offending some. Let me put my response this way. There are a lot of good LAC BA theater programs with excellent faculty and good facilities. I think that one of the reasons that some BA programs are voiced here more than others is because they have more theater majors; more majors likely translates into better productions. For example, my institution, long noted as a pre-med school, has excellent theater faculty, excellent/new facilities, and the college has, overall, a Type A, bust your butt reputation. However, ther are only about 15 theater majors, so when my son and I saw a production, we felt like walking out (they could not pull off Rocky Horror). I'm sure that a program like Muhlenberg would do a much better job, because they have more, and likely better, actors and vocalists in their program. I do not want to totally knock my school; a current soap starlet was in my class about 10 yrs ago. Treat Williams went here, as did Roy Scheider, and director that made 'Boys from Brazil', Papilon (sp. ?) etc.
Muhlenberg has nice facilities, decent faculty and lots of majors for a LAC, heck, they have more theater majors than in some BFA programs, these large numbers perhaps due to yhr school's constant invocation on CC (especially MT people) - its got brandID, and that brand ID has been leveraged by the college. Who has the better productions? Obviously, Muhlenberg, which, has smartly directed its strategic emphasis to the theater program, also explaining why it has a low selection ratio (lots of theater applicants) for schools that are comparably ranked.
Your comparison? It's all a matter of fit and taste. The schools are quite different. If I was advising my S, no contest; Vassar - you get a national reputation school that has a very good theater program. But it depends what your goals are, what kind of person you are (ideological leanings, etc.). I can say this: generally (all students, not theater majors), kids who are turned down by Vassar come to my LAC. Kids turned down from my LAC, turn to Muhlenberg. Kids turned down by Muhlenberg might turn to Wagner or Susquehanna - beware, Muhlenberg accepts a very large percentage via ED. Their acceptance rate is quiie high via ED, but substantially lower RD; another astute strategic move.
Muhlenberg is a very good school; don't assume that I am criticizing it, but I think that there has been a tendency on CC to put it higher (relative to other LACs) on the pedestal than it deserves. If my S had the grades to get into Vassar, I would also have him look at Fordham, Bard, Skidmore, and, for a safety, Drew. If you want the door open to create your own curriculum, with as many theater related courses offered as most BFA programs, look at Bennington. A strange place, but my son loved it - but, then again, my wife and I are ex hippies (I'm still one behind my nice clothes).

NotMamaRose

Brian, is your school more selective, admissions-wise, than Muhlenberg? I ask because (and I know this is only one case), I know a girl who was a very good student at a very tough and prestigious private prep school in my area who was waitlisted (and never got off the waitlist) at Muhlenberg and is attending your school now. Again, I realize this is only one case. But I thought I would ask anyway.

babar

I think that a lot of the Pennsylvania LACs get thrown together in people's minds: F&M, Muhlenberg, Dickinson, Gettysburg, Lafayette, etc. when really each is distinctly different and draws different individual students who can't appreciate the distinctions between the campuses by reading college guides, only by visiting. I, too, know that Muhlenberg is not at all an easy admit. Perhaps that is because of the school's heavy favoring of ED applicants which may be a bit of a trick to make the school appear more competitive - or it may be a way the admissions dept. has developed to ensure that it is admitting students who know the school and want to be there. I haven't been on that campus, but my husband took one of our kids there on a college tour and he said the place has a real buzz. He liked it a lot. This particular child is at a different LAC in PA that was the right fit for her. I think comparing F&M (which I did visit) with Muhlenberg is like comparing apples and oranges. But then, the whole ranking thing bothers me. Drew might be a better fit for a student than Bard (they are quite different), but if a student is accepted at Bard, just because it's ranked higher in US News and World Report, should that student go there? I just don't think so.

briansteffy

'selectivity' is not a good proxy for quality or placement among most of the LACs being talked about here. Location matters quite a bit when it comes to selectivity. For example, two schools that I would rank very high in quality (education, quality of life, post-graduation success) are Sewanee and Centre. Sewanee (one acre per student) is so remote that I am not sure that you can get cell coverage, even today. I think that they are still unable to get cable TV. Centre is in a small town in KY. They are outstanding schools, and reanked above the above-mentioned PA schools; their theater programs also look to be quite good, especially Centre, which now auditions for attractive scholarships. The Tenessee Williams estate is giving more and more to Sewanee- also, one of the most famous writing programs in the country (Sewanee Review). Well, their 'selectivity' is much lower (I think Sewanee is about 70% acceptance rate) than Muhlenberg's, but, in terms of the quality of education and the excellence and beauty of the campus, in my opinion, it's not even a contest. Muhlenberg, located as it is, within an easy drive from Philly and NYC, and, of course, NJ, has a lot of applicants. They get far more applicants than Sewannee and Centre, and typically more than F&M, G., and D. F&M and L. have been hurt a bit because of safety issues in the surrounding community. M. is more isolated from what is a small city with a relatively high per capita crime problem. Crime has a significant impact on 'selectivity. Drexel used to be quasi-ivy decades ago. Now 75% of applicants get in. Trinity College (CN) had problems years ago that they had to manage to retain their 'selectivity'. Catholic U., an excellent school decades ago, now accepts over 80%.
I wholeheartedly agree with Babar, each school is distinctive If you are a pre-med student or are looking for a good business Dept. in a small LAC, look at F&M or L.. If you are looking at theater, look at Muhlenberg. If you are looking at history, look at G. D. is trying to differentiate itself by emphasizing 'international'. If you want a school that leans toward the 'artsy' quarter, look at Skidmore, Bard, Drew, and Bennington. I do not consider M. students as 'artsy', though they have a strong theater program. M. more closely resembles F&M, a strong pre-med, pre-law school, though not as strong. Each differs, though each is a sincere class act; top-notch teaching and expensive.
The selectivity measure used by USWN are readily manipulated by using ED and early response schemes, by eliminating fee, etc. We visited Drew yesterday, and I was talking with the admissions person about this. Given the use of the Common Application blank, which allows applicants to apply with just another click (also,teachers can just copy the evaluation form provided by the Common Application), and adding various marketing schemes, colleges have managed to drastically increase their applicant pool.However, their enrollment rate has drastically decreased. It has made things more difficult for admissions.
But to assume that - speaking of LACs here- that there is a strong correlation between selectivity and the quality of the school, or the consequences post graduation, is erroneous. If post-graduation placement is taken into account, I would say that not all of these PA schools are the same; some are significantly better than others in getting students into med/law school, investment banking/consulting firms, PhD programs, etc. I am intimate with some of this data.
Babar. We liked Drew, and it looks like the Theater program is very good - on campus Shakespeare Rep. group, and the option of also auditiong for F-D productions. F&M is not a good fit for my S. It's motto is the 'joy of rigour' most students pushed as if they were pre-med majors - very high expectations; often said, you might suffer a bit while here, but you will thank us 5 years post-graduation. Stll, of the LACs we looked at, my S (and my wife and I) likes Bennington the most. Lots of LACs have given-up experimentation; all are somewhat homogenous, with a 'core curriculum', distribution, language, and other general requirements. There is noting wrong with this, but what we find refreshing about Bennington is their refusal to reject their rebellious roots.
But, each to their own path. And each is doing all that they can to manipulate the numbers so that USWN defines their colege as more 'selective', hence obtaining for the school higher rankings in the eyes of the profit seeking ranking publications (princeton review, USWN) and status obsessed consumers. M., F&M, Drew have all gone test-optional. Why? Well, the good reason is that they are smart enough to know that SAT score predicts little - a little less primitive than assessing aptitude by the contours of the skull. But the policy also attracts every kid who has decent grades, thus leading to a much larger application pool and lower selection ratio. It also has the effect of skewing the SAT range of accepted students higher (i.e., 25th % of 1200).