calmom

I looked it up -- Wellesley has about a 36% admit rate; Barnard admits around 25-28% of its applicants.

churchmusicmom

It sounds like these two schools offer very different, albeit wonderful, options. I think the best advice is to visit both and make your decision accordingly.

A Persona

Yes, I agree with churcmusicmom. You should visit both.

I had the same Wellesley v. Barnard decision. I chose Barnard for the pure amounts of opportunities being in NYC provides (internships, jobs) and the unbeatable experience of being in a huge city but having a lively campus. I also had second thoughts about the rather isolated all-women's environment of Wellesley. I think Barnard does a great job of balancing an all-women's environment and at the same time not isolating you from men.

You have to decide what's right for you yourself. It's different for each person.

alexra4

I've visited both multiple times, but my parents need to know whether barnard and wellesley is academically superior, before they invest in it...

calmom

Alexra, they are the SAME in terms of academics.

As a Barnard parent, I would argue that Barnard is "superior", because
(a) it has the full resources of Columbia, including graduate level courses;
(b) in terms of academic expectations in classes, it is the same as Columbia -- that is, the reading lists, grading, class discussions are all on par, though of course individual profs may vary;
(c) If by "superior" your parents are concerned with prestige value of the degree, Barnard is affiliated with Columbia and you graduate with a degree from Columbia; also, as noted above, it is harder to get into Barnard;
(d) If you are interested in graduate or professional schools, by virtue of the affiliation there are some combined programs that may enable early entrance into the grad school.

But I am sure that Wellesley students and parents could easily counter with arguments as to why they feel that their school is "superior". So that would be stupid to argue - the point is that BOTH Barnard AND Wellesley are as good as it ever gets academically.

It also depends on how you define "superior". I don't see how Wellesley could possibly offer students the RANGE of courses and the OPPORTUNITIES for advanced study that the combined faculty & resources of Barnard/Columbia offers. For example, if you want to study an obscure language, they pretty much offer everything you could imagine, and what they don't offer you can get via an exchange agreement with NYU. But many of those introductory language courses are taught by TA's rather than full profs -- so maybe a Wellesley person could argue that all of their classes are taught by PhD-holding faculty. (I don't know, I'm just speculating).

What are YOU interested in studying? Do you have plans for grad school? If you get down to specific interests and departments, then there may be big differences academically. For example, I went to the Wellesley web site and looked up my daughter's major. I could see that at Wellesley she would be required to take 9 courses but at Barnard she is required to take 10; at Wellesley she would be required to take 1 seminar with a major research paper, but at Barnard she is required to take 2 colloquiums with major research paper plus a 2-semester senior seminar which includes a thesis. So for that particular major, it looks like Barnard is tougher -- which I would see as a academically "superior".... but then of course we really don't know about actual course content - I'd have to start digging up syllabi to figure out whether one college requires more reading than the other. And there is nothing to prevent a Wellesley student from taking extra classes beyond the minimal requirements.

You need to go where YOU will fit in the best, to the college that will best serve your needs. I think Wellesley and Barnard are probably worlds apart when it comes to campus "culture".

mardad

Alexra4, academic superiority in terms of institutions of this caliber is well ... academic.
Suppose you're comparing two swimming pools one of which is a 12 lane Olympic pool and the other is a 10 lane Olympic pool. Now picture yourself trying to drink all of the water in either pool. One could argue that the 12 lane pool is superior, but both are way beyond your capacity to drink all of the water. At this point other things factor more in decision making: Do you want palm trees or an indoor pool? What color are the tiles?
The distance you swim in a race is not affected. In picking the pool you like other factors are more imiportant.
Now, as a Barnard parent who tried to talk at least his first child into going to Wellesley, I feel I should add some of the things I liked about Wellesley: 3000 acre campus; beautiful grounds; their own lake. My older D is an introvert so I thought this would be ideal. Her cousin goes to MIT. Did I mention the beautiful grounds?
My D who has all of the emotionality of a Vulcan on Star Trek made her decision based on her "gut" feelings.
Picture yourself at one of the campuses. Pretend you've made up your mind. Then see how you feel and what you imagine. Your parents can't go wrong.

softy

i think you should probably post this on the wellesley board as well. you're posting this in a barnard thread, there is going to be some tendency to be biased.

katescully

sorry i was wrong, you guys are right.

collegeboard: Percent applicants admitted: 36%
(wellesley)

but i realize these stats are outdated. It says barnards admittance rate is 28% but it dropped to somewhere around 22% this year.

calmom

Well, the stats tend to be from 2 years back by the time they are reflected in the common data set. But I think last year the admit rate for Barnard was around 28% -- and I hadn't seen a report from this year -- the 22% sounds like it may be from RD figures rather than overall. (The 25-28% includes the ED admits as well, which pulls up the average).

In any case, I don't think it makes much sense to focus on the admit rate - that's would be playing the same game as the arrogant few at Columbia who are so disdainful of Barnard because it is "easy" to get into -- Barnard's urban location & affiliation with Columbia by itself probably attracts a lot of applicants who would not otherwise apply to a woman's college or a small LAC, whereas Wellesley's applicant pool is probably a little more narrowly drawn. But the admission rates have very little to do with academic quality; U of Chicago also admits about 36% or more, and I don't think anyone would question their academics.

The only reason I included the "argument" in favor of Barnard in my post above is in case Alexra is trying to convince her parents to allow her to choose Barnard -- I am thinking maybe the parents are stuck on US News rankings and just don't understand how the US News formula undercuts Barnard by not considering the shared resources with Columbia.

Otherwise I really do think that academically there is not much difference unless you start breaking it down to comparing one department or program vs. another; but that the "fit" part might be very different. (My d. had cancelled plans to visit Wellesley and interview because of rain when she was in Boston to visit colleges; Mardad's description of the 3000 acre campus and the lake was enough for me to know that she made the right decision, as she had already knocked one college off her list for having "too many trees" and she was horrified when she saw pictures of all the fields and open space at Mt. Holyoke. She definitely is a city girl, and she was quite concerned about the distance she might have to walk to class in rain or snow. Loved the underground tunnels at Barnard!)

Bustles

Just to clear something up--you can't take classes at Harvard as a Wellesley student, right?

Menagerie

I'm daring to venture over from the Wellesley board.

Both Wellesley and Barnard are great schools. Since I've never attended Barnard (or Wellesley, for that matter), I can only answer to why I chose to apply early to Wellesley instead of Barnard. I actually went into the college process thinking I'd go to Barnard. I LOVE New York City, and have tons of family and friends there.

While it's a great school for some people, the more I saw of it, the more I realized it wasn't right for me. From what I've heard from my Barnard friends, I don't get the sense there is as much of a sense of community as is found at Wellesley. While I'm sure Columbia offers a ton of resources, if I was looking for a large university, I'd have applied actually to Columbia or to another similar school. A woman from Barnard came in to my school to talk, and most everything she said was something like "We're kind of a women's college, but we're not really because so many guys are nearby!" and "We're kind of a small liberal arts college, but not really because students take a lot of classes at Columbia!" I really liked that Wellesley embraced the fact that it is what it is -- a small, liberal arts women's college -- because I think that offers a lot. I also really like that Wellesley, unlike Barnard, is self-sustainable. While some students take classes at MIT, Wellesley has a fantastic math and science department of their own, and you could easily get through four great years never having to rely on another school.

I wouldn't read much into the acceptance rate. While Barnard's is lower, this could possibly be attributed to the fact that Wellesley's applicants are more self-selecting. In fact, Wellesley's average SAT for the class of 2011 is 30 points higher than Barnard's.

While it's clear I have a preference, I don't think Wellesley is right for everyone. Really look at both schools, and follow your gut. Good luck!

Snivellus

I don't understand how Wellesley's average GPA is that much higher than Barnard's. It's not like Barnard students have C averages....

mythmom

I believe the poster said SAT. And I'm sure that's true. Barnard is not "all about the numbers." Actually I believe, but I may be wrong, that Wellesley's SAT is higher and Barnard's GPA is higher.

I think in terms of academic rigor, it's a wash.

Your parents don't understand that there is not a neat hierarchy of schools that can pinpoint which school is superior academically. The USNWR rankings take many other things into account.

softy

as a wellesley student, you CAN take classes at harvard and mit. menagerie, you said it perfectly. those were my sentiments as well.

Snivellus

mythmom - She had originally said GPA, but edited it.