sanjenferrer

I'm a defender of Brown, but I do feel that matthewyy has been unduly attacked. Many people DO think that Brown is the backdoor to the Ivy League because they CONFUSE its "laidback" description with the "party school" image. He was simply acknowledging that this "party school" image of Brown DOES exist in certain circles as much as we hate for it to. If you go on the Cornell boards, you'll see what I'm talking about... Brown is frequently cited as the "weakest Ivy," the reason being that it's "laidback." Again, their understanding of "laidback" is clearly incorrect, yet that's how they've imagined Brown to be just from hearing that word. Matthewyy was just questioning the extent to which the University's emphasis on "laidback" (which could easily take on a negative connotation) is harmful to the image of the University because people MISUNDERSTAND the University's use of that word so much.

matthewyy

Thank you sanjenferrer..Thank you! Exactly..I didn't ever say that Brown is a party school. I just said that advertising it as a "laid-back "Ivy" school" makes the public think that it is some sort of a not-very-academic school...Also come on, I am sure that Brown's laid-back athmosphere is well more competitive than a mediocre school since most kids that go to Brown were created to WIN...As I said numerous times, I didn't attack Brown..I just wanted to share a misbelief in public about Brown in a friendly way....I was expecting people currently going to Brown to share the same worries about this misbelif. I didn't call Brown "the doormat Ivy" or "back door to Ivy" or "the weakest Ivy" , people with this common misunderstanding or misbelief do.....As I said in my first post, Brown needs to be careful because only 1450 students witness the truth.. Brown's image is quite critical because of things like endowment,no of research papers, facilities etc. already compared to other Ivies.(This is whole other story and actually Brown doesn't need all those since it is not a grad school-oriented school, which is great) (Also according to a long-run survey, if something positive happens people share it with 3 people max, but when something is negative, this number goes up to 11 in average) That was what I ve posted....But people called it a troll post...A troll is the one where I would come and just say "Brown is laid-back..Laid-back is partying...So Brown is a party-school"..I never said that instead I said Brown is a great school..But with a risky approach, it seems to get an image that it doesnt deseverse and is not in reality....

aoh591

If you don't like how Brown is advertised, how it is, or anything about it, then don't go there, pure in simple.

And btw, Cornell sucks. I visited that place...piece of ****. And at my high school, which sends a very high percentage of its 300 people graduating classes to top schools, Brown is not considered the "back door to the Ivies." Actually, Cornell is. I can't count how many times I've heard "Cornell's as easy to get into as UMass..." (exaggeration, obviously, but you get the point..."

modestmelody

There's a very simple explanation and solution here.

Brown is able to attract ~20k applicants for ~1500 spots, and the quality of their applicant pool is such that those 1500 students are a rather competitive class compared to any institution in the United States.

Brown's image works well enough for enough people.

Oh, and no one in academia or in the "real world" accepting/hiring you later in life thinks the way you fear they think, the only people who care about these things are some high school seniors and CC posters, so I wouldn't worry.

franglish

My brother, a rather high-powered investment banker, said that when prospective hires interview with him and he learns that they graduated from Brown, having concentrated in whatever interested them, he is always tempted to hire them. The inherent self-motivation and curiosity in Brown students informs him about their qualifications far better than many other criteria!

5757

aoh, why is it necessary to tear down one school in order to defend another? both cornell and brown stand well enough on their own strengths.

crzy2rite

Julia Roberts was a famous food critic in "My Best Friends Wedding" and she went to Brown! =)

soozievt

I think part of your concern needs to be looked at in the context of who is telling you this stuff. For instance, let's take the term, "back door Ivy." For one thing, the acceptance rate to Brown is very low.....back in 2006 it was 14% (which I think will be lower this year) and at the time, that was the 7th lowest acceptance rate of all universities. Four Ivies were lower...Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Columbia. The chances of getting into Brown are not better than most Ivies at all and so I hardly see how it is a "back door" in. Further, one thing you may find with kids who attend Brown, or at least I can say for my kid who attends, is that their aim was not to "go Ivy." My D never spoke once of going to an Ivy League school. She looked for schools that fit her personal college selection criteria, which included (among many other aspects) attending a very challenging college. But she even preferred some non-Ivies over certain Ivies and she also liked some schools that happen to be in the Ivy League. Going to Brown was not her idea of a way to get into the Ivy League as that was not her goal in itself.

So, those who are giving you these messages are of a certain "ilk" and are into competing for admissions bravado, in my view. And that is precisely the kinds of kids who are less inclined to want to attend Brown. Those who attend crave challenge and are very motivated and independent thinkers who are less caught up in getting an Ivy degree than in wanting this particular school because of the fit. The kids I have met at Brown do not come across as competitive with one another. They come across as highly motivated but who collaborate, support, etc. one another. Prestige is not their motivation. I think the kids you are talking to are into the whole prestige game and whether or not Brown is prestigious enough and so on. Those kinds of kids are likely not good fits for Brown.

I can tell you that in the work world and in academia, that Brown graduates are sought after and for good reason. If employers or grad schools thought they went to some slacker laid back school, they wouldn't be so interested in them. But what they find is very bright young men and women who are very interesting people, who have achieved both in and out of the classroom, and who are very motivated and self directed. Brown is not for everyone. It certainly is not for the type of kid who even thinks in term of phrases such as "back door into the Ivy League." That is not the kind of kid attracted to Brown, nor the kind of kid likely to be accepted or even be happy at Brown. Remember to examine the messenger and put the message in context. Take a poll of grad schools and high level employers and see what their impressions are of Brown. Right now, your poll is of high school students in certain competitive community environments who have a certain "outlook." I live in a rural area and NOBODY ever ever ever would say what you are hearing from the kids in your community about Brown. Here, the kids who have gotten into Brown are heralded. It is seen as a fabulous achievement (and with the very low admit rate, one of the lowest in the country, it certainly is) and the kids I know who have gotten in are really amazing young people who are going places in this world.

Um, no, I do not think current Brown students think this or worry about this.

Only certain types of people would ever think of Brown as "weak". If your goal in life is HYP and anything else is lesser....well then, Brown is not for you. Only on CC would I ever read of Brown in these terms. This is not how Brown is perceived in the wider world. You worry about Brown's image and I can tell you that is needless worry in the real world. Perhaps it is a worry in the world of those whom you know in your high school community and that is really too bad. Look beyond what THEY are saying. I am sure you have read that Brown has the "happiest students." Their retention rate is high and I have yet to meet a Brown student who did not like it there. They are happy for a reason. They are NOT worried about Brown's "image." To the contrary.

Matthew,
May I ask why you have chosen to apply to Brown? What attracts YOU? Do you care what others think? If you do, you are likely not the right fit for Brown. I just don't think the kids there care about others' perception in this way.

franglish

My D felt exactly the same way! Maybe the lack of cut-throat competition sends the "laid back" message. I would rather that the people who scoff at Brown for those unfounded reasons not even bother. I don't think they would be happy there; they may be too competitive and feel out of place.

EDIT: I posted this before I read all of Soozie's post. Interesting how similarly we and our daughters feel.

sly_vt

My daughter is the same, franglish. Brown was the only Ivy she considered applying to. My daughter doesn't care about prestige -- she wanted challenging academics, an urban environment and an active, smart, creative student body.

All schools have reputations. Not everyone at Cornell or NYU commits suicide and not everyone at Wesleyan smokes dope and all MIT students aren't geeky nerds.

What bothered me about the original post was the idea that "This is the way Brown advertizes itself as well" (a direct quote, including spelling error). The media can describe Brown however it wants, and Brown has no influence on how books, movies and newspapers portray the school. I've never seen any evidence that Brown itself -- Ruth Simmons, admissions, alumni -- "advertises" itself as a party school, as the back-door Ivy.

What I took offense to was the idea that "The O'Reilly Factor was already harming Brown's image....so even after that Brown keeps playing that card...." I strongly disagree that Brown is "playing" the "party school" card. Maybe high school students who watch O'Reilly or The OC get that impression. But Brown is not pushing that image.

Brown administrators might even agree with matthewyy that "this image is really dangerous for the prospects of Brown." Which is why I think the last thing Brown would do is try to push this image on high school students. Do you think Brown was happy with the O'Reilly report? Think again.

So, if the original post had been, "look at all these negative images of Brown in the media, Brown is getting an unfair reputation of being a party school, what do people think" -- I would have responded very differently to this post. It's the idea that Brown itself is happy with and promoting this "party school" "back door Ivy" reputation that bothered me.

negru

Waht r you takling abuot Ruth is amznaing!!1

/wave

Though I would have to agree that Brown is great if you really are self motivated and don't want to compete or compare yourself to others. I mean, what's the point of busting your ass to do all the problem sets and ace the exams? Get a dist_A which doesn't even appear on the transcript?

sly_vt

Oh right, we forgot about negru, the CC resident complainer about Brown.

JK -- maybe.

Actually, there are unhappy students at Brown, like there are at other schools. There are students who transfer, who find that, for many reasons, the school doesn't work for them. However, negru, I am glad to see that you recognize that the school works best for the self-motivated who are not driven by competition with others. One of my biggest concerns as an alum is that Brown doesn't lose sight of that in this heated admissions environment.

And the reason you bust your ass, negru, is for the self satisfaction of doing the best you can, for mastering the material, for learning. Not for a silly mark on a stupid piece of paper.

soozievt

My D told me the other day that she has not known of kids who have transferred OUT of Brown. She knows one who transferred out and attended another school for a semester and then came BACK to Brown!

ClaySoul

matthewy:

"as a "I will go, party, rarely go to classes and at the end will get an Ivy league diploma" school"

You did say it was a party school, an easy path to an ivy league diploma. Nothing could be further from the truth. People at other ivies knock cornell for being stupid (hotel management anyone?) or harvard for being posers or princeton for being wasps (i'm not saying ANY of this is true).

The reason no one is agreeing with your concerns, is that they are so patently wrong and unfounded that we simply don't feel the need to worry about such a misconception. Any, ANY foolish high schooler lucky enough to make their way into Brown will have any such notions quickly dispelled.

ClaySoul

And I COMPLETELY agree with Franglish.

I HATE those who want to "go to an ivy." yes, i pass judgement upon you