Everything you wanted to know or should know about accounting - Page 11

melon390 · 07-23-2008, 10:51 AM

what can you do with a JD/CPA? Tax? Would that be stronger then, say, a MS in Taxation/CPA?

rocco100 · 07-23-2008, 11:58 AM

taxguy, how hard is it to work in chicago if i pick up an accounting degree outside the midwest?

taxguy · 07-23-2008, 09:22 PM

Rocco100, no one will be able to answer your question definitely. However, a lot depends on your GPA. I studied accounting in NY but got a job in Florida. The better your GPA and interviewing skills, the better your chances anywhere.

However, partners at firms usually interview in areas that they work. It certainly would be easier to get a job in Chicago if you go to school there.

pebbles4562 · 07-24-2008, 12:02 AM

Our CPA firm tried sending our 1040's "out" for preparation last tax season. It doesn't work that well. Most folks who have their tax returns prepared by a CPA firm usually have situations that are too complicated for H&R Block to handle. The preparers in India only input the information that was scanned and sent to them. We still had to go back through the returns very carefully after they were "prepared" and there were still many open items/questions. We came to the conclusion that it was better, cheaper, and faster to do everything in our office start to finish.

Business returns would be even more difficult to "offshore". Too many questions to ask the client and we certainly woudn't want someone outside our firm sending questions to our client.

taxguy · 07-25-2008, 03:26 AM

Pebbles4562, I completely agree. I can't imagine too many business clients agreeing to having all of their sensitive data sent abroad with no privacy controls.

aswedc · 07-26-2008, 04:42 AM

I disagree taxguy.

At least two of the Big 4 firms are involved in a big outsourcing push, sending work not to a third party but to internally run offices in India. This is a major investment.

Here are some good posts on the topic from people at the Tax Talent boards:

Quote:

I work in ITS at a B4. No hiring freeze at all, in fact, we still struggle with having enough people to get the work done and are still hiring, both entry level and experienced.

Regarding India, I believe we have about 1,000 people in our India outsourcing operation. In my view, what India does is provide us with a large pool of staff who can do basic things like simple compliance. Their ability to do more sophisticated work is very limited though. In using India people, once I add in the additional cost of oversight of US or Europe based experienced staff or managers, work done in India is not meaningfully cheaper than using local staff.

Are they cheaper than US/Europe staff? Yes, but not by much and, given wage inflation in India, not for much longer. Two years ago we paid $15k USD for a new staff person, and that was below what call centers were paying then. We sold the jobs to candidates based on the opportunity to grow in a profession and join a top firm. Not surprisingly, turnover at the India center has been staggering. We have bumped up wages but they are still inadequate to keep people. Particularly the good people who will take the experience they get with us and go to a company where their really is a career track.

Despite our bluster to the contrary, India outsourcing folks are nothing more than warm bodies to us and, practically speaking, there are limited long term career prospects with us unless they transfer to the regular India practice.

Given wage inflation, turnover, inexperience, and no real way for outsource staffers to gain high level skills, why do we persist with using India outsourcing? 1. A lack of US/European staff. We simply can't hire the number of people we need to get the work done. They are not available in the market. 2. While it is not less expensive to use India outsourcing staff on client assignments, it is less expensive to maintain them if they are not being utilized. This allows the firm to avoid layoffs in the US and Europe if the work flow slows down as we can, as a first option, simply stop sending work over there. This is a benefit of India outsourcing that is only discussed behind closed doors. Yup, India outsourcing is helping create US job security.

Quote:

Brian, I disagree. The Indian operations are projected to be 20% of all D&T billiable hours in the next 5 years. (tax practice) We have been able to recruit more experienced Indian staff & management by offering various incentives including higher pay/benefits in the recent years. Have you made the trip to "Region 10" as the D&T marketers refer to it - its not "India", its "Region 10". I worked in the NYC office before, no one referred to us as "Region 1". They don't like to say "India" because its obvious that the firm's leadership wants to ship jobs overseas...at an increasing rate. I do not disagree with this approach either...let the world share in the wealth...but I think its important to point out the long term implications.

Yes, you are correct that the more mundane and repetitious tasks are sent to "Region 10". However, these taks were traditionally handled by entry level staff members or interns in the US. With a projected goal of 20% of billables hours to India, I cannot imagine that US recruiting will continue to be high in certain groups.

For some groups including ITS and M&A, they are immune. However, for most tax groups, the increasing presense of Deloitte in India will have a long term impact to US job seekers. I've heard some projections that tax returns will no longer be prepared in the US by 2015. You cannot seriously claim that this won't impact US job seekers.

I understand your point, but respectuflly disagree.

More here:

TaxTalent.com - Career Forum

I won't claim to be anywhere near knowing the true cost savings and success level of the India operation, but I can tell you from an internal PR standpoint this is being pushed very hard as a great initiative for the firm. A target of 20% of billables coming from India is, from some of the information I've heard, a very conservative figure.

taxguy · 07-26-2008, 07:51 AM

I don't know about D&T billing nor do I understand what exactly has been outsourced,but I do know that if they are sending sensitive data to India without the consent of the client, they are opening themselves up to a major lawsuit and probably a class action suit.

aswedc · 07-26-2008, 01:59 PM

To make it a bit more clear, in the Tax Talent posts, the firm Brian (first poster) is referring to is not Deloitte. This other firm and D&T are the two that I know of with major outsourcing operations.

Most clients are aware, if not all (I'm not sure the specific policies on this). And given most large engagments have at least some work being done in India, it seems they are ok with this.

I don't see why they would not be, to be honest. The Indians are employees of the US firm, subject to the same policies and controls as the rest of us. They are college graduates, some sponsored by the firm to receive US MS Tax degrees, and all work is reviewed by US personnel. What's the issue?

taxguy · 07-26-2008, 05:34 PM

aswedc, there are a NUMBER of issues:

1. Privacy: tax returns involve a LOT of sensitive information. The few the number eyes that work on the return, the better to some extent. Sending important data abroad increased the risk of identity fraud and missuse of sensitive data.
2. Quality Control: I honestly don't think that foreign employees can be as closely scrutinized as that of US employees. Perhaps I am wrong,but that would be my visceral reaction if a firm asked me for permission to have returns prepared abroad. Like wise, CPA firms are unconditionally liable for the work performed by their staff. Less quality control can mean more errors.

3. Nationalism: Frankly, I want my work done here in the US...Period. Even if I were convinced that it could be done reasonably well abroad, which as I noted, I am not convinced is the case, I want Americans working on my data and not some foreigner. I would pay more for this.

4. Questions: Have you ever use foreign "customer service agents?" I have especially for Dell Computers. The service tends to be spotty at best. I have gotten bad information at times and have had numerous problems with understanding their accents. If I have a question regarding my return, who do I talk to to get my questions answered if I can't speak to the preparer!

So yes, there are lots of issues!

southpasdena · 07-27-2008, 12:27 AM

GT as well sends a large amount of work to india.

aswedc · 07-27-2008, 01:58 AM

taxguy, I think those concerns are legitimate, but they are minimized by the following -

- the staff is overseen, in person, by US managers and partners who work in India
- US staff are encouraged to rotate short term to India to gain experience with the practice
- Indian staff also rotate to the US to see how things are run over here
- ultimately, the final product is signed off in the US. The client can contact a US based manager or partner who is familiar with and approved the product with questions.

Mondo · 07-27-2008, 10:43 PM

http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/news/p...ses/par_06.pdf
I notice that none of the top 25 MS Accounting programs are in New York State.
If I want to work as an CPA for an Accounting firm (and raise a family) in New York, would it be most advantageous to get my Masters degree outside New York OR find a solid SUNY MS program? (e.g: Binghamton).
Since I assume SUNY would prepare me well for the CPA exam anyway..but will Big Four firms look at a Texas/Illinois/Wisconsin degree more favorably?

1lazysoul · 07-28-2008, 11:29 AM

@taxguy

i was wondering how it would affect my career if i decide to attend the MSAcc program in the same school that i will get my undergraduate degree from. one of my professor commented that it would be better if i went to another school for my grad degree.

taxguy · 07-28-2008, 07:21 PM

1laxysoul, I am not sure it matters that much to employers. However, I do believe in taking a masters in accounting at a different school that you got your undergrad in accounting; otherwise, you will get the same profs, and I find that too insular..

1lazysoul · 07-29-2008, 12:51 AM

Even though I have been here in the US for almost four years now, all these higher education stuff is still a puzzle to me. I see myself staying in school for a while, and not because I would be failing my classes but because I'd like to get the graduate stuff out of the way. I really like accounting and I am more interested in getting an MSAcc than an MBA and maybe even a PhD. I'm only a junior this coming semester and I feel like I should start gathering information right now so here are some of the questions that I have in mind...

1. What are the good accounting graduate schools? Is there also a list for that?
2. Do I need work experience first or would I be fine applying after I get my UG degree?
3. Do I have to take the GMAT? If so, when is the ideal time to take it?

Thank you in advance!