noimagination

^ Yeah, you're okay as a Canadian. But definitely check out some of the EFC calculators out there because "need" may not be what you think.

starbright

Keilexandra,

Lots and lots and lots of programs within large universities. I teach in one of the largest in Canada right now. I have a class of 4 students starting this morning. I have never had to teach a class larger than 50. Students in our majors, we know personally- every single one of the professors. Our school, within a large university, is jokingly called "X High" because of its mostly self-contained and everyone knows almost everyone.

I was reading a thread about someone in Arts at McGill, their class size was comparable to what I was reading about one of the top LACS- maybe it was Carleton. It was not overly different.

Please let me clarify, I'm not suggesting their are not differences. But a) the differences are grossly overrated and b) who is paying for it? If there was no cost differential, it would be simple.

But as two married professors who know how things work very well in both countries and what actual education and experience is like at most universities, and as a parent who has to consider where their teens will go (and as dual citizens, we've always thought in terms of both countries), it is very hard to justify the roughly $150,000-$200,000 extra cost per child. We earn too much to be able to think about fin aid. Its not that we can't afford it, we can, we just think its not *worth it*.

The vast majority of students are very happy at the schools they end up, often not their top preferences. Most experiences will not be significantly different despite what the brochures want you to believe. We also know our kids will be just as successful in either path. We'd rather put that money where it will make a difference in their lives, such as for the purchase of a house, or future educational goals for our kids. We are fortunate enough to know exactly what we are getting for that money (and what we are not) and its simply not worth it just for undergrad.

If you as a student don't have to ever pay the tuition, or maybe even think of money as a criteria, I suppose it's quite a different decision for you and so of course I can see where you are coming from.

The Question

@starbright:

sorry for taking awhile to respond, but there is a reason why UMich Ross school is, on teaching quality rated by students, is a tad below Wharton's. You can disregard USNWR, but there is some truth to it, else why bother? The reason you want to pay 50k for an american school like UMich, Pomona, CMC, UCLA, is because the job opportunity through those schools are much better. You go ahead and tell people from the American east coast, I graduated from UBC, and more likely than not, you get "what"?

Like I said, American schools screen their applicants much more thoroughly than Canadian schools. It's all about the average percent for Canadians. it's way too narrow to filter whose deserving of the best quality of educaiton, and who isn't deserving of it. You can meet people who are much more likely to succeed in the world in the States and its schools, than in Canada and its schools.

I don't see a problem with ranking and rating a school. If their only about hype, then is McGill overhyped too? And rankings and ratings are good. Why not be competitve. Canadian education's lack of pitting studetns against each other creates this lack of "pursuit of perfection", something I want to point out makes America one of the superpowers in the world, and something that will always keep Canada as a middlepower.

As for the actual school itself, I know a former English professor at UBC who was educated at UMich, and he admitted that the UBC campus is a joke and the teachers there are no better than their State counterparts. Of course, the east could be different, however I insist that going to America for 50K is much better since the students around you are more competent, the schools have better resources and alumni connections to "hook you up", and more fair.

starbright

Thanks for your post but I respectfully disagree.

Many of my former students are working in the US in terrific companies. Lots of US based firms recruit at UBC. I've also sent many an undergrad student to top US business schools to do their PhD. ANd they do easily as well next to their Ivy league trained classmates (the difference being their parents didn't waste $200k).

I also have not seen a difference in students in any of the schools in which I have taught: Canadian, US Ivy and US state (i also attended two top 10 US schools). They don't screen better, they just screen differently. HS in Canada is not the same as the US. Look at the stats on AP scores for Canadian and US students to give you a hint.

The rankings have *some* validity- no one is disputing the reputation of HYPS for example. Number 14 is likely offering something that say number 89 might not be. And name recognition carries value. But beyond that its a game. Ranking begets ranking, it takes on a life of its own. No diffferent than any other branding that isn't based on substance but instead on marketing and hype. I've been playing this game for way too long and its one reason I liked leaving the US system, since we could start focusing on education and not have to constantly worry about playing the rankings game (which often had little to do with what students were learning or experiencing). Playing with the data, promoting new this and that, creating facades to get the right impression, hosting and interviewing and spending a lot on the garden, managing the rankings when nothing substantive changed. A ton of window dressing to justify the outrageous tuition, and most of get the applicants in so your yield numbers would change.

Better resources? Maybe. I was giving a talk a Yale one year, and the board collapsed, an actual chalk board! I had never seen such a campus in disrepair.

McGill is overhyped to Americans, yes I agree. Just like Americans think Oxford is better than Cambridge... that speaks volumes doesn't it? My concern is too much of it is about marketing, what people collectively are led to believe, and branding because students such as yourself can't possibly differentiate the real product.

But hey, its not your money so doesn't matter right? I'd love to see what you would choose as the better value if you had to actually pay the $50k a year instead of your parents (which I'm assuming is the case).

noimagination

The deep irony here is that schools such as UofT are known for having extremely strict curves and therefore cutthroat competition.

Turpial

Interesting thread!!!

Most posters here agree with choosing HYPSM over a Canadian University, but assuming a good financial aid package, will you recommend Cornell or Columbia over UoT for Engineering?

ttyl8

I'm definitely thinking Cornell over U of T engineering (considering that I'll get a good FA package)...

Turpial

ttyl8,

Thanks for your reply. I was curious to know if under those circumstances, someone will still prefer UoT over Cornell. One aspect that I consider an advantage to UoT is the location. Toronto has more culture and diversity than Ithaca. Of course, you don’t have to stay in Ithaca during weekends, but still.

Keilexandra

^ Toronto certainly has much more to do than Ithaca, but not everyone wants to be in a city. (I personally much prefer cute Ithaca to a loud city--and I've yet to find a silent city--no matter how great the culture and diversity.)

Turpial

^ I agree. Every person is different with different priorities. Personally, I'd like to be close to a big city, but not necessary in it. But going back to my original question, anyone else can think of a reason why to pick UoT or McGill over Cornell or Columbia? Other than the money of course.

unitofobscurity

^ Maybe you find Ivy-type institutions too culturally insular and artificial. Maybe you know of a specific prof at U of T that you'd like to work with. Maybe you dislike all things American with a passion, and couldn't stand spending four years in the Empire State.

I haven't visited Cornell or U of T, and was on Columbia's campus for less than an hour, so I can't really give any specific reason, but I suspect reasons for turning down one of those schools for U of T or McGill would be of a similarly personal nature (excluding $$$, of course).

missioncontrol

go apply for some of the tops see if he can get in

berekwest

I agree! I'd go with that old quote I find on every other teacher's poster board: "shoot for the moon and you'll surely land among the stars." Besides not making perfect logical sense, the moon being much closer than the stars, it's a good philosophy to live by. From what it sounds like, your kid is very intillectually stimulated and could apply himself perfectly at an ivy league school. The essays are a large deciding factor, a good one can make the difference. The financials are also a big consideration of course, but all the financial aid and loans offered in every direction can cover him for his entire university experience. Then when he graduates his income boost from graduating at a great school will make whatever his loans accrued insignificant. US is where the money is to be made. Period. Having said that, I know little about Canadian schools. I do know a lot about US schools though. My school, UCLA, would be a great choice, it's currently rated the lucky 13th best University in the World. If you want some info about student life and housing costs check out the articles I wrote for it.
http://www.gullivearth.com/en/guide/.../united-states
http://www.gullivearth.com/en/guide/.../united-states

I don't know your son, but from what it sounds like he just needs the right direction and motivation to pursue his passion. He might find that from a study abroad experience.

ttyl8

I agree... apply and see if he gets in. If he gets into an Ivy, finances might not even be a big issue (depending on how much his parents make)

Keilexandra

I wouldn't recommend any UCs to OOS students; for practically the same price, you can get a much better education elsewhere without having to deal with the bureaucracy and budget cuts.