Best Canadian Schools vs. Top American Schools

manmanmanlol · 06-03-2010, 10:12 PM

Hello... I was wondering how the best Canadian schools (U of T, Mcgill, Queens etc.) stack up against schools like Emory, Northwestern, or Georgetown. I know that HYPSM are usually seen as being better than top Canadian schools but how would the three above mentioned US universities (Emory, Northwestern, Georgetown and their peers) compare to Canada's best universities. Btw, I'm talking about undergrad. Please give opinions. Thanks!

StarsAligned · 06-03-2010, 10:22 PM

It really depends on which major, but the general consensus of opinion (including mine) and rankings show that, OVERALL:

Emory is roughly 5-10 ranks worse than Canadian schools.
Northwestern is 5-10 ranks better.
Georgetown is abysmal, in terms of any ranking.

McGill has a strong medical program, and has once reached 13th in the world (ARWU) overall.
UBC is a generally strong university with solid 30ish rankings.
UT also ranks similar to those US schools.

Keep in mind that schooling can be quite different, and people have different preferences! Rankings always change and are always debatable, so basically, they are ALL approximately of the same caliber.

alam1 · 06-03-2010, 11:56 PM

^ In my opinion. the above is extremely untrue. The OP specifically talked about undergrad... and for undergrad, Emory and Northwestern are seen as better than the best CDN universities. I would argue that Georgetown also offers better undergrad experience than CDN unis. This is due to US university's large endowments, small class sizes, amazing facilities, student to faculty ratio etc. Starsaligned, you seem to be referring to world rankings... top Canadian universities like U of T and Mcgill do well because they are extremely graduate focused (more graduate research). For example, U of T is usually ranked 20ish whereas Brown is ranked 80ish. Now, are you actually going to argue that U of T offers a better undergrad experience than Brown? I would say that borders on silly. World Rankings are extremely absurd because they favour larger schools who do more graduate research. This explains why schools like Purdue and even Texas A + M are sometimes ranked infront of Brown, Emory and Dartmouth. For undergrad, top US universities offer a much more personalized and effective experience IMO. Grad is a totally different story because U of T's and Mcgill's grad programs are some of the best in the world.

MajorLazer · 06-07-2010, 03:30 PM

At the undergraduate level, there's no comparison. Generally, I've heard the most comparable school to McGill/UofT/UBC is Michigan, and they're not even quite at that level.

alam1 · 06-07-2010, 04:24 PM

^agreed. Canadian schools simply don't have the resources to be able to compete with top American privates on the undergraduate level. I would compare Mcgill, U of T and the like to schools such as U Wisconsin or U. Illinois... still good undergraduate schools... but much more appealing for graduate studies.

ViggyRam · 06-07-2010, 05:11 PM

UMichigan gets 7 billion in endowment. I don't even think top Canadian schools get that much...I may be wrong though.

thatguy100 · 06-07-2010, 05:24 PM

U of T is Canada's wealthiest institution of higher learning.. it has $1.8 billion.. I dont even think that matches Brown, Emory, MIT, etc...

ViggyRam · 06-07-2010, 05:36 PM

^yea, not even close. UMichigan get 7billion and it is a STATE school LMAO. UTexas-Austin gets 4 billion I believe. Ivies and such are probably into the double digits with H Y and such well into the double digits.

USNews rankings has the endowment for all schools

starbright · 06-09-2010, 12:02 PM

I have been a professor (as has my spouse) at both top US schools as well as Canadian ones. Over two decades. I also oversee a large professional association of professors, which includes American and Canadian ones. I have sat on several review boards for colleges. And I visit at least six different schools a year.

You will get about the same undergraduate education at any of the schools listed above. While some programs might suit you better, or have features that are preferred for a given student, by and large, your education will be the same. In either country you will be as prepared for graduate school or work (and with as much opportunity). The quality of professors, the materials covered, the pedagogical approach will not differ.

What you will find is that at large publics there is greater ability diversity in the classroom. But the top students in any of these schools will be pretty much on par and have the same opportunities afterwards.

I really can not emphasize enough that students on anonymous message forums really do not have access to information, insight or perspective to compare "US" vs. "American" schools. What you get from them is a biased rumor based mythology that is based upon mass media hype, advertising, and popular culture that and has no basis in reality.

StarsAligned · 06-09-2010, 06:53 PM

^ don't forget alam1's blatant yet understandable bias. :P

kelloggss · 06-09-2010, 06:56 PM

The true difference between a top Ivy league school and a mediocre canadian school lies not in educational quality, class sizes, etc etc. The difference ironically lies in that there is "mass media hype, advertising, and popular culture" around the ivy league school. Because of this hype, employers, internship coordinators, professional school admission officers, etc regard these top schools on a different level than average state or canadian schools.

This is what everyone chases after, the prestige, the connections, the halo...

alwaysamom · 06-10-2010, 08:20 AM

Kids, listen to Starbright. What she says is absolutely true. Two of my five daughters attended excellent U.S. colleges, the other three attended school in Canada. The quality of the education they received was remarkably similar, and the four who have graduated from undergrad have all been successful with work/grad school/law school. The biggest difference was the exorbitant costs required for a U.S. college education.

shawbridge · 06-28-2010, 11:19 PM

Starbright is correct in stating that you will get the same education from most schools but but that analysis is only partial and leaves out a few important dimensions.

My perception is that there is a difference at the very top 10-15 institutions (HYPMSC, Amherst, Williams, Brown, Dartmouth, ...) and many other good schools including top Canadian schools. The difference is not (as Starbright points out) in the quality of the education but in three or four dimensions: 1) horizons; 2) contacts; 3) alumni network; and probably the ambition and overall academic level of one's peers.

Here is what I wrote in an earlier post:

Quote:

There are a lot of good schools. A few have recognition well beyond the US borders and people outside of academia take notice. Alumni networks are very strong. My sense is that a very limited number of schools make available opportunities with much higher probability than others. They also tend to cause the already ambitious students to set their sights higher.

Having attended and/or taught at three of HYPS, I've benefited from the positive effects. I think that at each step, the probability of good things happening is better, especially if you want to do something out of the normal linear progression. I've shifted what I do a couple of times and I am confident that my affiliations have increased the ease with which I've been able to shift at high levels.

For example, I decided to take a year off after my first year of grad school and was looking for a job in a field that was different from my own but related to it and interviewed with one firm, and one of the two principals were grilling me about what I knew and what skills I had until one turned to the other and said, "He's Princeton magna, Jerry" and Jerry then turned and said, "OK, so why do you want to work here?" Similarly, I switched fields after getting my PhD from Harvard and I am confident that the location made the switch easier. I later left academia and joined an investment bank and then a family's investment firm. Both moves came directly as a result of contacts made as a professor at Harvard. Having Harvard boldly emblazoned on my current firm's resume and being an expert in what we do means that the red carpet is rolled out at times when we go to places like Australia, Malaysia, Peru, Japan, China.

I have a very bright nephew on the Canadian side of my family. All of his Canadian relatives told him to go to McGill and then go to grad school in the states and said, the only thing that matters is where you go to grad school. I told him about horizons. When you go to McGill and you're ambitious, you are in a sense conditioned to be the best in Canada at what you do, but if you go to the top 15 US schools, you are conditioned instead to want to be the best in the world at what you do. He went to McGill, did very well, is now at Oxford and got one of 8 slots offered to 3000 applicants at a first class investment bank. He'll start there next month. I recently had lunch with him in London and he told me that he didn't understand what I meant about horizons and being the best in Canada instead of the best in the world until he was at Oxford. He now realizes he would have really enjoyed going to school in the US (at one of the top schools). He would have liked to have been in a place that helped him set his sights higher and also said that he was under-challenged at McGill, especially by many of his classmates. [Because the Canadian schools tend to be big, the upper tails are large, but he's a particular strong kid and didn't find many of his classmates that strong. I'd be surprised if he found that to be true at Yale.]

I think that once you drop below the top 15 or so schools, which don't have the advantages I described above, there is no meaningful difference between US and Canadian schools. As Starbright said, you can get a similar education at each.

The only potential difference is that the US has LACs, institutions which may not be fully replicated in Canada. ShawD and I are going to visit Mount Allison, Acadia and Kings next month, so we'll compare to US LACs.

silverjacket · 07-23-2010, 12:30 AM

I am a Dual American/Canadian citizen and this topic has troubled me quite a bit.

The University of Chicago is currently #1 on my list and the University of British Columbia is #2. I love Chicago for the liberal arts education it offers to undergrads, the absolutely beautiful campus, the location, the small class sizes, and the intellectual/love-of-learning atmosphere that I read about. The more I learn about it the more I want to go there. I really feel that Chicago would be an excellent fit for me. However, I am not in love with the price tag (around $50,000/year).

UBC costs about 1/5 that amount, is highly regarded internationally, and the city of Vancouver is amazing! The location of the campus is also ideal: on the water, isolated from the city, but close enough to enjoy it whenever. I don't know much else about it. I'm afraid that its size will lend to huge classes with students that aren't as driven as I am.

Could I really receive the same education from these universities? They're so different from each other, and probably offer very different experiences. Also, would the connections I make in Chicago be comparable to those in UBC?

In terms of price, UBC wins hands down. In terms of quality of education and how it will set me up for the rest of my life....I'm not so sure.

StarsAligned · 07-23-2010, 02:20 AM

As a dual citizen, you will qualify for financial aid at UChicago. Along with possible scholarships and work study, the final cost will be less than 50k/year.

In my opinion, UChicago's small classes will offer a more personal learning experience, it's famous professors will have unique inspiration, and the overall attitude and atmosphere of UChicago will better prepare you for the future (the students have gone through a much more rigorous application process after all).