asmallchild

Neither. Shadowing doesn't help you get into medical school. It really really doesn't help you get into residencies.

Bigredmed

You have to do some sort of clinical experience to get into med school. It's one of the few things that is really just a box you can check off (I try very hard to discourage students from thinking med school admissions boils down to a check list, but this is one thing that really needs to be done). All that said, it doesn't matter what you shadow, so long as you have some sort of experience seeing what physicians do on a daily basis and you get some exposure to patients. If anyone offers you a chance to shadow them, TAKE IT.

monkeyaone

What do you consider shadowing? Like can it be just like one day in the OR for a plastic surgeon? Do I need to do anything specific or can I just stand there? Do I need some sort of proof I was there? Should I take down the exact OR number and stuff while I am there and who was with me/who I was shadowing or even maybe a written statement by the surgeon?

Thanks

bluedevilmike

Nine questions, if I count correctly. The answers, in order, are no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, and no.

DukeWayne

Look, you are asking a bunch of good questions regarding medical school and how to become a plastic surgeon. I am a plastic surgery resident right now in Maryland (there's only one plastics program here, you can figure out which one I'm talking about). I've been through all of this before, and I've been on the med school application committees, so here's my advice.

First you have to get into medical school. I know you want to do plastics, but put that on the back burner. Getting into medical school is becoming harder and harder each year. No matter where you go, NO ONE will expect you to have your mind made up about which specialty you're going into. In fact, if you say, "I am definitely doing such-and-such" it will only make you look ignorant. There is simply no way you can know. No offense, but you know jack about medicine. That's why you're going to med school--so you can learn. There is no way you can know what you need to know to choose a specialty. Admitting this will place you above a lot of other applicants. Knowing that your knowledge is limited and admitting this is a big step and shows a lot of maturity.

Second, and listen closely on this one: Most people, including doctors, have the wrong idea about plastic surgery. They think that we (plastic surgeons) are all about glamor, money, big breasts, etc. Saying you want to become a plastic surgeon (especially during your med school application process) is only going to back-fire on you. To be blunt, it makes you look either ignorant or pompous. Regardless of your experiences so far, I promise you that you know next-to-nothing about any specialty. You gain that experience during your third and fourth years in medial school. So, stick to what you know right now.

Third, here's what you need to concentrate on to get into medical school. You've got to have a good GPA (traditionally, 3.6 or higher). They DO take into account your major. For example, if you majored in any type of engineering and your GPA is 3.6, this will probably make you look better than someone who majored in business or history with a 4.0 GPA (no offense to those majors out there...I'm just giving you the facts). Med schools look for all types of majors and they really do not give preference to any one. They like anything in the core sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, biochem, microbiology) but they also like math, they LOVE engineering (b/c it's tough and involves application of knowledge), but they also like the non-science majors, like english, history, accounting, etc. So, study what you like. Just do well. Further, everyone who applies to medical school must take the same science courses (2 of biology, 2 of gen chem, 2 of organic chem, 2 of physics, and some other electives). That's a lot of science, which is why you can major in anything and still have a solid science background. After your classes, you need to get experience in the clinic or hospital. You need to shadow a doctor, any doctor, and you need to build a relationship with them. This will occur over weeks to months. If you can, get to know several doctors. How do you prove that you worked with them? Because, you're going to get letters of recommendation from them. That's how. You also need to show that you are able to place others before yourself. Do this by volunteering time doing things like working in big brothers/big sisters, feeding the homeless, etc. You need to show you're a humanitarian. Everything else is for bragging rights. Research is very important, and if you want to be competitive, you must have some research experience.

I would not worry about shadowing a plastic surgeon right now. Just shadow any doctor, and be sure to get a letter of rec from them. Do well with your GPA, and get research experience. Get involved in extracurricular activities, like volunteer work, student council, etc. And do not say "I want to be a plastic surgeon". Say something like, "I don't really have the exposure I need to make that decision, but I am very curious with surgery. I think I may enjoy reconstructive work, like with burn victims or craniofacial anomolies. But for now, I am definitely going to learn all I can about every area of medicine, and then I will decide."

Lastly, here is the scoop about what plastic surgeons do and how we get here. There are only approximately 80 plastic surgery residency spots in the nation each year (over 300 apply). By residency, I mean that you are "Plastics" on day one. You do approximately 3 years of general surgery first, then 3 years of plastic surgery training, and then you are done. The other route to become a plastic surgeon is to do a full residency in either general surgery, ortho, ENT, neurosurgery or urology, and then you do a fellowship in plastics. The fellowship years are the exact same as the last three years of the plastics residency. In the end, you are all the same.

Plastic surgeons are trained to do hand surgery, micro surgery (sewing arteries, veins and nerves together under a microscope), craniofacial surgery, general total-body reconstruction (burn, mangled limbs, chest-wall/abdominal wall recon, genitalia recon) and of course, cosmetic surgery.

This post is long because there is a lot for you to know. And there is even more for you to know if you want to do plastics. There's no room for messing around. If you want to do plastics you'll have to be the best...period. We are a very closely-nit society, and there is a very small number of us. The best thing you can do to become a plastic surgeon is to get accepted to medical school and graduate top in your class. If you do that, and do some plastic surgery rotations during your third and fourth years, you will likely have what it takes.

Good luck. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't do this. I was very curious about plastic surgery in college, but I never said that until I was already in medical school (I knew it would look arrogant). We are not about big boobs and pretty faces. Yes, we can do that, but we are really about other things. I challenge you to discover what those other things really are. If you can, we'll be happy to ask you to join our society.

DukeWayne

I read some of these prior posts saying that shadowing doesn't help. If you don't want to get into medical school, then listen to those posts. If you do want to go to medical school, then read my post above. Shadowing is important because it is the only way you are going to get a meaningful letter of recommendation for an actual physician. You'll need letters of rec from a college professor who really knows you, from the university doctor you did research in, maybe from the leader/manager of a volunteer organization you worked for, but you will DEFINITELY need a letter of rec from a physician who knows you. Not having one is like trying to win a NASCAR race without a car. You might as well pack up and leave.

Lastly, please be careful about the advice you take. You should really be asking medical students or doctors for advice. That's why you need to find one to shadow. "The only people who know what it is like to be a medical student are doctors and medical students."

Good luck to all who are trying to become doctors. We need you. You'll definitely have friends who join this journey with you, and many of them will not finish it. They'll choose some other profession or will not have what it takes. You've got to be willing to take this walk alone.

Work hard and stay humble.

Bigredmed

I'll politely disagree on the need to have a physician LOR to get into medical school. But your overall point on shadowing is spot-on, though it's really any clinical experience, hospital volunteering is acceptable. And I'll co-sign on having LOR's from people who know you.

Welcome to the board!

asmallchild

Unfortunately the image that many pre-meds have of plastic surgery is the d**ch*b*g from Dr. 90210 (only vowels remain)

Real life is vastly different. (Although in watching his show, his actual work hours seem to mirror that of plastics residents. i.e. brutal)

I'll also echo bigredmed's sentiment about NOT needing a physician LOR. Perhaps things have changed since I applied for medical school but outstanding LORs from your professors seem to be the key.

That being said, SOME shadowing is probably best so that you can coherently explain why you are interested in medicine, demonstrate some volunteering aptitude, and at least have vague exposure to the field.

norcalguy

No. (10 char)

bluedevilmike

I agree with this; a letter from a physician you shadowed will actually be an embarrassment, as if you couldn't get a letter from somebody for whom you actually did something. You want to stick with professors and research supervisors.

Nonetheless, I would absolutely affirm EVERYTHING else about posts #35 and #36. This is a wonderful, wonderful post that I'll be forwarding students to from now on. ^^^ 44.

DukeWayne

Again, this is from my personal experience of being on admissions boards at Wash. Univ. and at Hopkins. A LOR from a physician who knows you very well is good. I'm not saying it isn't common for people to be top-notch applicants without physician LOR's, but it makes sense. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but for everyone out there who is a doctor or in medical school, lets take a step back for a minute and think about how we struggled with getting good simplified advice before med school. I'm going to try to simplify this the best I can for everyone out there wishing to become a doctor. I always appreciate feedback, even if one doesn't agree with me.

I agree with the prior post saying that LOR from professors who know you well and who you did something with (like writing a research paper) are the best. No doubt, LOR's from people like that will make up majority of your letter arsenal. However, do not under-estimate the importance of building a strong relationship with a doctor who will write a LOR for you. I'm not talking about some doctor you spend a couple of afternoon's with to get a LOR (that would be along the same lines as getting a LOR from some professor who's class you made an A in, but in fact didn't really ever get to know as a person). Many top applicants will work with a physician from the university (academic physician) and will write papers with them, help with clinical trials, etc. This is the type of experience I'm talking about when I say shadowing a physician.

I think that if you apply to medical school and you have outstanding LOR's from your professors, and a lot of "volunteer" experience, good grades, high test scores, but nothing to show that you've actually spent rigorous amounts of time beside a physician, you may be looked over.

Many people perform well in the undergraduate environment and in the labs of professors but struggle in the clinical environment of physicians. Doctors know this. Not all doctors "require" it, but many do. Lastly, it's part of a well-rounded application. If the experience is productive and you did a lot, it won't be an "embarrassment" because you'll have papers/etc to show for it. Of course, if all you did is stand in the OR or in the clinic, then it might be an embarrassment.

Bigredmed

Fair enough, the example of the physician interaction you've described is much more along the lines of working with a research PI. That sort of letter absolutely would carry wa

The problem I have with this is that there are a great many places where it's impossible to work with an academic physician - many very large state schools (Nebraska, Kansas/Kansas State, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama/Auburn, Colorado/Colorado State, Oregon/Oregon State, Washington State, Arizona State, Florida State since it lacks a teaching hospital, and plenty of the biggest schools in Texas come to mind) have separate campuses in different cities for their flagship U and Medical School. The problem is even more widespread for people at a wide number of private schools.

Considering the difficulty most medical students have getting face time with academic faculty at their own institutions to get LOR's for residency and the task for most undergraduates is nearly impossible. This board is about simplifying advice, but in doing that, we have to consider what's the most widely applicable. Simply put, most undergrads aren't going to be in a position to obtain that level of interaction with an academic physician.

Really, we're arguing over a minor detail. Clinical experience is a necessity, I think we're all in agreement here, and not having any (whether volunteering or shadowing) is problematic. It's whether or not you need an LOR out of that experience and the possible implications a physician LOR might represent that we're discussing.

manhattan11

DukeWayne- You say that med school admission committees love engineering majors, but which specific engineer major? Biomedical engineering perhaps?