bigndude

golubb - You said about something about people working in med school. Do you know people who are in med school and suceeding while having a job. Personally I don't know any med student who works, or worked when they were a med student, you don't exactly have a lot of time to work and study.

"We all know that the last 3 years in residency pays at the poverty line, so you don't make any money but you don't lose either. "

Could you please explain this because this has me confused. Because the last 3 years of residency for something like Gen Surg pays more then the first two year, and it pays above the povery line. Some residencies are only 3 years, so its not exactly the last 3 years, unless you consider residency part of medical school which is something new to me.

golubb_u

"Could you please explain this because this has me confused"

I was talking about the 3 years of a residency in Internal Medicine or Psychiatry....you do get paid, so you won't be taking any debts out on this amount of time.

"However, I still feel that engineers may have the best package: 4-5 yrs of school with good scholarships for women, good salary, and good job opportunities"

Hmmm, you're only looking at the positive sides, which aren't that positive. To decompose it even further...

1)Since you're a female in engineering, you may find it quite stressful. You may be shown less respect by your peers. Your promotions will be much slower than male counterparts.

2)There is a feeling of isolation anytime there's a 1:10 ratio against you. You may find yourself making friends with the secretaries and other workers while on the job...clicking with the male groups may be much more difficult than you expect.....you better have top notch social skills PLUS top notch engineering skills.

3) You may feel on the verge of losing your jobs at many times...lack of projects, supervision, invites to discussions/meetings.....if you're not doing something all the time, you may be let go..

4) You may be job hopping every 3-5 years....each time it will get harder and harder to get a job. There's no job in engineering that's stable....except if you work for the government. You WILL job hop.

5) You may not be interested in Salary, but guess what....why do people work to begin with?? That's right, to make money. Nobody likes to have a job except if you're into charities or something. But in general, you better care about your salary!!!! After you're older, and your peers in other fields are making much more than you are, you may start caring a whole lot.

6) If you think engineering is a good package....guess what, so do a milliion other people, including people in India and China. And it's a MUCH better package for them than for you, and they can get into the game in NOO time. So, imagine coming into office from 9-5 while your counterparts come in from 8pm-7pm.....pretty soon you'll be working 8pm-7pm a day as well, for no additional income. That's 55 hours a week, plus 5 hours for lunch, so you're putting in 60 hours for low pay.

ˣΆË

well if you need more help deciding, you could consider volunteering or internships in the medical field or in engineering. you may want to see if you can interview people with those careers. once you understand both careers from a first-person point of view, it may be easier to choose. sure, money is a great thing, but make sure your career choice is something you wont regret.

vimalkpatel

golubb_u: what are you exactly in? (undergrad, med, or practicing or something else)

namaste

it's disgusting how everyone wants to be a doctor these days for money. that's it. how many of those nerdy science guys actually want to help people? anyway, perhaps some of you "pre-med" types might consider alternative medicine such as acupuncture or chiropractic medicine. you will still have to go thru a fair amount of schooling, but it is not as cutthroat as MD. and you can make almost as much money, if not just as much, as MD.

golubb_u

No way is chiropractic ever going to pay as much as MD.....stick to MD, and the AMA will give you a job for life ;-) You'll have time for your spouse, vacation, money for the million dollar house and BMW and pension when you retire. Doctors have it made.....

"it's disgusting how everyone wants to be a doctor these days for money."

Yup.....90% of them are in it for the money and they're having a great time making all the dough. BUT, they also help people along the way since it's part of their job. Even seen those ads for Laser eye surgery?...ever think why they advertise?...to get business perhaps?

PSedrishMD

Ninety percent of the MDs I know are certainly not "in it for the money". That's so bizarre that I cannot say any more just now except shame on you for thinking such a thing!

bigndude

"stick to MD, and the AMA will give you a job for life ;-) You'll have time for your spouse, vacation, money for the million dollar house and BMW and pension when you retire. Doctors have it made..... "

If only that was true, but it isn't. Nowadays not every doc is a multimillionaire. Some aren't even millionaires. Most docs stay on in medicine even after they retire whether it be consulting or inspecting hospitals (Joint Commission, etc). They keep learning medicine even after they retire also, it really is a lifelong commitment. I'm sure some stop completely, but if they have spent that much of their life in it, they probably can't just leave it one day. Now for impact to chime in. He will also tell you something similar.

impactangel

hahaha...i gotta agree with all of the above from psedrish and bigndude

It will take the average doctor (I'm using the number you gave us: $155000/year) around 13 years to accumulate 1 million dollars in post-tax money.

And that's assuming this doctor doesn't repay tuition debt (on average $100000), doesn't pay for medical malpractice insurance (increasing every year), and doesn't pay for those other things in life (housing, food, cars, spouse, children, vacations, retirement accounts, etc... etc...)

As such, I think it's really unfair (and untrue) to state that doctors are in their chosen profession for the money.

So again, is it good money? Sure!
Will it provide for a comfortable style of life? Absolutely!
Is it popstar/athlete/multi multi millionaire money? Certainly not.

audiophile

To dispel a few other myths:

4. never get laid off: A radiologist I know went to report to his for profit hospital job and found it locked up for good. I've seen some other abandoned "insurance clinics' in my area. Fortunately, the job market is good enough and I'm sure the docs found new jobs quickly.

6. Don't report to anyone: There seems to be a trend towards group practices, HMOs, etc. MDs can report to MBAs, medical directors, etc.

As impact said, you will most likely be comfortable-not necessarily rich. With the malpractice/insurance issues, it is not the same profession it once was. Many of the MDs I know are advising their children to pursue other careers.

golubb_u

"A radiologist I know went to report to his for profit hospital job and found it locked up for good"

Well, between my dad, mom and uncle, we know at least about 7 engineers that got laid off...all of them senior (35 or more) whose job was taken over by an offshore company.

"There seems to be a trend towards group practices, HMOs, etc. MDs can report to MBAs, medical directors, etc."

....that's one of the few good points that anyone has mentioned. Even though doctors may report to MBAs, the MBAs usually make less than the doctors, and are usually doing the corporate paperwork and making sure the doctors see a sufficient number of patients.


*** "Ninety percent of the MDs I know are certainly not "in it for the money". That's so bizarre that I cannot say any more just now except shame on you for thinking such a thing!" ***

1)then why are the doctors so obsessed about money and million dollar homes? I've yet to see one that lives in a modest house.

2) why do all doctors hate HMO patients? They always give PPO patients the early time slots and push the HMO patients to next 3-4 weeks! ...could it be because PPO patients pay more money, -G a s p-! Shame on THEM for hating HMO patients.

3) Why do doctors take on debts of 100k in med school and study for 8 years? Could it be because they know they'll be rich enuf to pay it off in no time??

4)Also, why are doctors advertising for Lasik procedures, such as Gary Kawesh in the bay area? He's making money hand over fist from advertising.

5) Why are doctors forming "VIP clinics" that cater only to patients that can pay a $2000 retainer? They're also getting filthy rich off of this "boutique medicine" craze.

6) Most of all -If doctors were not "in it for the money", then how come they make so much money??!

bigndude

I'll tackle this part of your post *** "Ninety percent of the MDs I know are certainly not "in it for the money". That's so bizarre that I cannot say any more just now except shame on you for thinking such a thing!" ***

1. I've seen plenty of docs who live in very modest houses. I know lots of docs who are what you would call cheap and only shop at walmart to save a buck. I don't know what docs you are talking about. Beverly Hills Plastic Surgeons? Becausse they certainly aren't a good example of docs pay. I have yet to see a doc living in multimillion dollar house. Some around my area do live in million dollar houses but thats because its the avg. price of a new house in town and we have among the best school systems in state, and we are 5 min away from two major hospitals.

2. Could it be the extra paperwork. Or that fact that the doc usually doesnt make the appointment, the receptionist does. Or maybe the fact that it does cost money to see patients and the doc can't fill his days with HMO patients or he would go broke. Or maybe the HMO is the one who fights and says the patient doesnt need anything, and the doctor has to fight to see the patient so it takes this long.

3. A LOVE OF MEDICINE. By the time you have studied this much a spent this much time in medicine you could be practicing law and making much more. Docs don't choose to take out that many loans, they do it out of necessity in order to realize their dream of practicing medicine.

4. Because they want to attract business? If you spend a bunch of money for a machine you need to pay it off by having patients.

5. How about because its too expensive to rely on patients who never pay or whose insurance companies pay very little. Many docs don't want the hassle of dealing with paperwork, and its the perfect solution. Instead of filling their sched with people to pay the bills they can accept less patients a day and give really personal detailed attention to each patient and their problems. Malp. Insur. doesn't pay itself you know, and if they only relied on insurance money they sure wouldnt have enough to pay for their practice. And how do you know they get "filthy rich?" It pays the bills for them and gives them a modest income. Now if they where to see just as many patients as with an insurance company that would be different, then they would be making much more but not giving the super personalized attention, and they wouldn't be a boutique for very long.

6. Because thats how their pay is. But once again once you take away all the taxes and insurance etc they aren't making all too much money for the hours they put in. I'll do a little theory for you a doc works 45 weeks out of the year. Lets say he brings in 150,000 bucks after all expenses are taking out, a nice high range for a general doc. Thats $3333.33 bucks a week not bad. Now lets do this, 70 hours a week or so, the amount of time a normal doc might avg, could be more could be less. $47.62 cents an hour. Now if you where to really adjust times and figures a doc would avg maybe 40 bucks an hour. Sure it sounds great, but engineers make that, avg business people make that, lawyers make much more, Investment bankers make much more. Get my drift? It really isnt a lot for the time put in.

DiGamma23

"70 hours a week or so, the amount of time a normal doc might avg"

from: http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=...icp=1&.intl=us

"Physicians spent an average of 57.6 hours per week in professional activities in 2001, according to the AMA's Physician Socioeconomic Statistics, 2003-2004 Edition."

I totally agree, no one should enter ANY job exclusively based on salary. But there is no denying it, DOCTORS HAVE AN EXCELLENT SALARY- anywhere from around $150K for pediatrians, GP's, IM's, and psychiatrists to $250K+ for anesthesiologists and radiologists, AS THEY DESERVE.

Even with taxes and FICA, which subtract between 30-40% of the paycheck, and medmal as well, there is still by far a very comfortable income for doctors to enjoy.

Bottom Line: Do not pursue a career in medicine if only the pay will motivate you. But anyone who refutes the fact that they live on very very comfortable money is basing their judgment on pure fallacy.

golubb_u

"$250K+....AS THEY DESERVE"

..That's right. That's what I plan on "deservering". The other people on this board seem to want to drive people out of medicine for selfish reasons.....I've seen the lives doctors live, and it's much, much better than any other profession that I've seen (including engineers, CEOs, dentists)

impactangel

Since you plan on "deservering" this lifestyle, I was just curious as to where you are right now? High schooler? College student? Med school student?

If I had to guess, I'd say you weren't in medical school yet.

And if you aren't in med school yet, my advice would be to steer clear of salary issues during your med school interview. (You can keep it in your head as your main motivating factor for entering medicine. Perhaps it is true that many doctors share that same motivation. But mentioning it aloud is a surefire way for the admissions committee to perceive you as selfish, immature, and possibly unable to grind it through the long road to become a doctor.)