umardarr

dude r u sure its only 225 for surgeons?? I'm sure a cardiovascular surgeon or neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon rake in A LOT of money...don't they make like a lot more than say internal medicine??? I understand u mean after malpractice and what not..but still lol...wierd.

btw, do any of you think that the average doctor's salary will raise as years go by? Like I'm sure a doctor wasn't making as much back in the 60's as they could be right now

CDN_dancer

I've actually heard that their salaries are going down...

mr_sanguine

umardarr: That's exactly the point. CV surgeons, neurosurgeons etc are specialized surgeons.

The 225 you're referring to from the link is GENERAL surgery.

CDN is right, the salaries are going down, but money will still be there for those who pursue it.

myope6

you can be a CEO with an MD but you can't be a doctor with an MBA. lots of insurance company and hospital high-ups are MDs.

audiophile

Brilliant summary!

bigndude

Salaries for everyone are going down in medicine. Sure a lower level gen surg right out of residency makes 150k, then take away malp insur. and other expenses and taxes and thats not much money. Even at the median with taxes and malp. you are still not making as much as you could in other fields. And yet people still persist onwards asking this question every week. Heres that answer if you go into medicine you will make a good living. You will most likely not be rich, but you will also not be poor if you know how to manage money. Most lawyers will make more then you. Most business people will make more then you. If you are looking for a very comfortable living style with low hours, high pay, medicine probably isnt for you. If medium-high hours are fine for you, a good lifestlye, pretty good pay, and you have true passion for medicine then it is probably a perfect choice for you.

mr_sanguine

"Most lawyers will make more then you. Most business people will make more then you."

This is highly untrue. It takes just a little bit of thought to know that most people with MBA's in America entering the business field do not make significant amounts of money. The MBA is the most commonly acheived professional degree in the US, and most business people do not make 200k. Ask your parents, your neighbors, look online.

The misconception arises when you look at the big guys in business - those who have successfuly made it to the top (with many years of grueling, almost inane paperwork types of jobs behind them: think analyst). It is true that the big time CEO's and upper level investment bankers of important firms and large companies will make lots and lots of money - more than the average doc for sure. bigndude seems to imply that because of this fact, business is a more lucrative career than medicine (if all you're looking at is cash).

However the fallacy in this way of thought is that you are comparing the best of the business world with the average doctors. Not all the MBA's will be CEO's and high-end investment bankers. This is a fact of life. Similarly, not all doctors will be the well-respected neurosurgeons or CV-surgeons. These guys will make considerable amounts of money. If one has the ambition to pursue it, 500k+ is not unrealistic.

bigndude, you cannot compare the i-banker to the pediatrician if all you're looking at is income. A good i-banker has made it to the top of the business profession, and as such you need to compare him/her to those at "the top" of the medical profession. That's a more realistic observation.

ForeverZero

Mr_sanguine, business is a much more lucrative career than medicine. By your argument, you could consider careers like medical technicians and nurses as part of the medical field. Why only MD's? What about chiropractors and other professions stemming from DO's? They're in the medical profession as well. It's also unfair to compare a low-level manager with a neurosurgeon. Specialty surgeons, who are at the very top of the medical hierarchy, deserve to be compared to the top investment bankers and CEO's, who make multi-millions. No matter which way you look at it, the average person in business will make more money earlier on than the average person in medicine. And when comparing the top salaries of each group, there's no comparison. If you want to make a lot of money quickly, go into business (preferably i-banking).

mr_sanguine

As usual, you make some good points, ForeverZero. But everybody on this thread is considering MD's. You can't simply introduce a new variable and claim it fits. By your logic, what about the people that enter business with no leadership skill and end up as low, or at best, middle-managers? They're in the business profession as well. These guys make the 200k discussed earlier?

The point here is that in medicine, you are guaranteed a certain, high level of income - whatever that might be - no matter what branch you choose. This is no way true in business. As mentioned earlier, the MBA is the most commonly achieved professional degree in the US. And in no way do all the MBA’s make it to the top of the business income ladder (top IBs and CEOs) If you enter surgery or some other specialized field (derm, for ex) the guarantee of income is even higher than that of the non specialized docs.

You are right when you said that the top investment bankers and CEO's make more than even the highest paid of doctors. I mentioned that earlier: "It is true that the big time CEO's and upper level investment bankers of important firms and large companies will make lots and lots of money - more than the average doc for sure"

My argument is when someone said that MOST business people will make more. This is simply untrue. Some business people will make ALOT more money, though those that make it to the top levels of IB and corporate management are very few.

In the end, if all you’re looking at is money, then it comes down to whether or not you want to throw the dice. Take a chance and try and make more than you ever would have had you entered medicine by trying to make it to CEO, or go after a high income guarantee in medicine (though still less than that of the CEO) by pursuing a specialty surgery. And this income guarantee is quite high (think over 500k) for those that pursuing it (not everyone does). And for those docs already making this money, the opportunity cost of choosing medicine instead of business in terms of income is greatly balanced by the fact they are truly helping people in unimaginable ways, and by the fact that there is inherent job security in the field.

You might say that similar to the fact that very few people make it to CEO, very few also make it to specialty surgery. But medicine is different in that those that choose not to be the neurosurgeons or CV-surgeons, it is their choice not do it (family, interests, other passions). In business, it’s often someone else’s.

If you're a gambler and all you want is money, go to i-banking!

eternity_hope2005

I-banking it is

mr_sanguine

looking back, i think golubb really nailed the issue in his first post on this thread.

eternity, glad we could've helped!

ForeverZero

Mr_sanguine: you speak as if you think that medicine leads to guaranteed wealth, which is not true at all. It's arguably just as hard (if not harder) to make it as a specialty surgeon than as an i-banking managing director. First of all, admission to med school is statistically harder than admission to b-school. Med schools have far lower acceptance rates than b-schools, and undergrad programs are able to weed out many aspiring premeds with rigid curriculum requirements and difficult weeder courses. This type of weeding out doesn't occur nearly as much for pre-business students. Also, admission to med school in no way guarantees that you'll match into a good residency program. High-paying specialties such as dermatology, cardiology, and orthopaedic surgery are extremely competitive to get into. Some specialties also require admission to a fellowship program after residency (such as cardiology). As you can see, medicine has a number of difficult barriers to overcome. It's not like getting into med school will set you up for any specialty; many people can't pick and choose. They have to stick with whatever they end up matching in. Many aspiring cardiologists get stuck after their IM residency, and they are forced to practice the relatively low-paying specialty of general IM. There is a public misconception that once you get into med school, you can easily enter any specialty you want. This is not true at all. Also, many MBA's enter relatively low/medium-paying management jobs because they also want to have lifestyle-friendly jobs. Many of them are content with low six-figure salaries as long as they get family time, job security, etc. Those who really want the money can get it through i-banking, where million-dollar salaries seem to be common. If you analyze things thoroughly, you'll see that medicine is not an easy path to guaranteed wealth. It's arguably as hard or harder to become a rich specialist than an i-banker (keep in mind that one doesn't even have to be a top i-banker to pull in a million dollars per year). If you want money, medicine is not the path to go, period. It might actually be easier to break into i-banking, and as long as you don't burn out, you will be a millionaire before you're 30.

mr_sanguine

i respectfully disagree

You say many MBA's enter relatively low/medium-paying management jobs b/c they want to have a better lifestyle. My bet is that while this is true for some, many more are being forced to "settle" because they can't get the better paying jobs.

You're right in describing how difficult it is to get those high post medical positions, but making it to CEO is no walk in the park either. While you cite entrance into medical school and residency programs as the reasons for the pathway into top-level medicine being more difficult (in your opinion), my personal view is that the route to top ib and CEO is more challenging, simply because in this case your fate is in the hands of others.

And whereas in business your destiny is controlled by other people, in medicine, it's more so in your hands. It's much easier to make it to neurosurgery and CV-surgery (where there are very high incomes) through genuine hard work than it is to make it to CEO through hard work. When you said that the weeding out that occurs in admission to medical school doesn't occur for those in pre-business, you are correct. But the weeding out is just postponed for post-graduation, when people get their jobs and have to perform there.

And not that it really matters, but I think you might be overestimating the salary of an ibanker. Most Wharton kids enter i-banking, and the median salary for those 10 or 15 years (sry, i forgot which) later is about 500k. I can find the Wharton survey for this if you want me to - just ask. While MANY, MANY ibankers make the 1M mark, I don't think its just anyone - you DO need to be a TOP i-banker to pull the 1M a year.

Again, I am not saying that docs make the same as ibankers. If all you want is money, than there should be no hesitation in pursuing ibanking over medicine. But if you want more - helping others, girls etc, pursuing medicine is a great option. There is lots of money here too if you want to pursue it (though, once again, i consent, not as much as in i-banking) and you get the added bonus of the value of your profession as well.


I think we've mostly made our points by now. You've raised some good issues and i hope in some ways it helps ppl to decide on what they want to do. good luck!

ForeverZero

When you're trying to match to various residencies, you're not leaving your fate in the hands of others? And I never mentioned CEO's or top IB's. Even average i-bankers, at the managing director level, can easily pull over a mil per year. And besides, I never said that getting to the top in business is easier than in medicine. I was merely refuting the commonly held notion that making it in medicine is much easier and guaranteed, which it is certainly not. Both are at about the same level of difficulty and competitiveness, although they require completely different skillsets.

No, I'm not overestimating the salary of an i-banker. And I've also seen the Wharton survey. Salaries are not broken down by industry. That $500k salary is the average of all Wharton grads who responded to the survey. Because of those low/mid-level managers we mentioned before, that average in no way represents how much i-bankers are making. http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm shows rough salary ranges for various i-banking posts. The low-end of MD's at bulge-bracket firms is $400k (and from what I heard, that would be an atrociously low salary for MD's). From various people I've spoken to (friends' parents who are i-bankers, family friends, etc.) I've heard that salaries of $1mil are not uncommon even at the VP level. As I said before, as long as you don't burn out, you will make a ton of money as an i-banker, as much and quite possibly more than the top doctors.

I agree with you here. My whole point was that if you want money, go to i-banking. It's extremely tough, but you will make a lot of money relatively quickly. When all your peers in medicine are struggling through their fifth year of residency, drowning in student debt, you could be a millionaire. Of course, medicine has more prestige with the general public and you can saves lives, yada yada, so it's all a matter of fit. I totally agree with you here. I think we misunderstood each other in that you thought that I was implying that all MBA's can easily become overnight millionaires, and I thought that you were implying that medicine is the easy path to lifelong affluence. Neither profession is easy to break into. Both have extremely demanding lifestyles. I-bankers make more money, but doctors have those priceless perks of being able to have the God complex and have job security. It's a matter of fit.

mr_sanguine

"When you're trying to match to various residencies, you're not leaving your fate in the hands of others?"

You are, of course, but less so. Your med school, your grades/rank in the med school and board scores are very, very important factors in determing residency match and these are not so much in other people's control. In business, conversely, alot more is based on luck, inate ability, and how much your boss likes you. These aren't in your control. That's why I know Sakky has posted a number of times on the MBA forum that the purpose of MBA programs isn't really the education, but the networking opportunities the programs present.

Also, getting into a specialty isn't really the hard part of residency match. It's rare that someone is matched to something they don't want/dont like. The more difficult part - the part that everyone talks about - is WHERE you match. The issue is not whether or not you'll match in neurosurgery, but if you'll match at Mass.Gen or Funkydoo Med.


The salaries....I'm still a bit sceptical the numbers (I also know some bankers through family etc), but I won't argue it because we've both already agreed that ibankers do make more cash than docs. Though I have said it once and I'll say it again that there is solid money in medicine for those that want to pursue it (again, not as much as in i-banking). So we agree here too.

You put it well at the end. It's a matter of fit and what you want. People just have to evaluate the opportunity costs in their favor. it's diff for everyone.