protestthehero91

It was the 2009 competition year, and thanks!

LACalum

1190 has covered most of what I would add to this conversation, but I will just back up that information by saying it is correct that Carleton does not offer merit aid, and it is also correct that they initially select a class in a need-blind fashion before seeing if they have to consider need in any cases due to budget. The last statistics that I heard, financial circumstances only affects something like 1 in 15 admissions decisions (for better or worse). So could your need hurt your chances? Sure. But it most likely won't, so I would not worry too much about something you won't be able to change anyway.

jack63

LACalum, 1190, thanks for clearing up Carleton's stance on Merit Aid. Having need effect 1 in 15 admissions decisions is not bad, but it no doubt means that some of the poorest students will need to have a lot to offer Carleton in terms of who they are to be accepted.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with this in my opinion though.

Here is what I don't know though. This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts.
If you have two families each making about $100,000 a year with similar assets and the same number of kids in college, do they get the same or a similar amount of aid. If Carleton thinks that it likes a student from the first family more than the second, and then it gives the student from the first family more need based aid, then its not really need based aid(at least not in my book) even though Carleton may be calling it need based aid.

I don't know what Carleton does here. I know some universities would give the student they liked better more "need based aid" or whatever they want to call it. I would certainly feel better if Carleton didn't operate that way.

Mmomm

Our experience has been that Carleton sticks to the FAFSA/CSS profile numbers.

LACalum

Jack63, I see what you are asking now, and you can rest easy. Carleton's financial aid is definitely based ENTIRELY on need/FAFSA/Profile information and not on how much they want a particular student. A good example of this is that a student who applies early decision to Carleton will get the same financial aid package they would get in regular decision, even though Carleton doesn't need to convince the early decision student to attend.

protestthehero91

That was actually another question of mine. I am hesitant to apply early decision anywhere because I was thinking that, if you are forced to go there if you're accepted, couldn't they just not offer you any aid? What I'm hearing you say, LACalum, is that they would still give the same aid either way. Just double checking that.

P.S. Are there any statistics on that, like how much aid regular decision applicants get compared to ED applicants?

vossron

From the common app ED agreement:
https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/DownloadForms.aspx

No common app school can or will force you to attend if their financial aid offer is insufficient, and the student/family decides if the aid is sufficient, not the school.

If you have that one dream school and will attend if there is any financial way to make it happen, by all means apply ED. Don't apply ED if you want to compare FA offers.

protestthehero91

Oh, ok. I had no idea about that; it's very reassuring though.

ctyankee

I pulled up this thread because my son is planning on applying ED to Carleton. I guess my questions are around how the above actually plays out. How does Carleton select a class on a need-blind basis before considering their financial budget? Do they really and truly ignore who checks the box on 'need financial assistance' on the common application when choosing ED candidates or do they evaluate and defer applicants based on a combination of how strong they appear with their ability to pay? If the answer is that they are truly need-blind while selecting ED applicants, does that mean that regular applicants face more scrutiny as to their ability to pay then ED applicants?

My son really has his heart set on Carleton, so it is important to us that we don't put him at risk simply because we don't know the reality of Carleton's process. Thanks for any info.

lunitari

ctyankee, you can make yourself crazy trying to read the minds of admissions staff. If your son has his heart set on Carleton, then just make sure Carleton has every opportunity to get to know him and his special qualities and the reasons he's a good fit for Carleton (and Carleton for him). Visit, interview, meet with a Carleton alum in your area.

Carleton practices need-blind admission to the utmost extent that they can afford to do so. An overwhelming majority of the class are admitted on a need-blind basis.

1190

ctyankee:

1. You're right to be concerned. But the reality is that no college is truly need blind, especially in the midst of this recession. Much has been written about this. This is from TheIvyCoach.com April 2009 newsletter:

"What need-blind admissions actually means is that a type of firewall exists between admissions and the financial aid office through which information does not flow. Yet, in the real world of college admissions, there are other ways that a need-blind college can figure out if the applicant will need aid. On every application there are questions that the student must answer that reveals the family’s economic circumstances. When both parents are ivy league graduates, and one is a partner in a white-shoe law firm, while the other is a partner in a top consulting firm, the sibling is currently attending a prestigious private university, and the high school is located in an affluent zip code, it is not difficult to conclude that if admitted, this applicant will be a “full-pay.” Add to this mix, a student who writes about his summer community service work in Guatemala that cost his family eight thousand dollars, it becomes even more obvious that the family can afford the tuition, room and board at the college to which he/she applied."

I would also "add to the mix" that many colleges increased their wait lists last year. While there were many reasons for this, consider that the need blind policy only applies to first round acceptances for entering freshmen. Freshman admitted off the wait list along with all transfer students, are admitted NEED AWARE. Contrast this to Carleton, which accepted no one off last year's wait list and only very small numbers of transfers.


2. Specifically with regard to Carleton's own policy, below you can read the departing president's own words in a recent interview in which he candidly answers your question:
Oden | Carleton Progressive

"PF (Interviewer): So then is it truly need-blind?

RO (President Robert Oden): No, since 1993 it has not been need-blind. So there is a budget that’s based on last on last year’s budget and we increase it by as much as we can. So, for example, from last year to this year, though every other budget line at the college was flat, we increased financial aid just short of 7 percent. You should talk to Paul Thibodeau, the Dean of Admissions, who’s the expert at this, but to really be able to afford to be need-blind and insure that for the future, we would probably need an endowment of two or three times ours. In the early 1990s, there was a long discussion among faculty, students, and staff and they decided that the only sustainable thing to do was to continue to base all aid on need, to continue to meet the full demonstrated need of every admitted student, but to have an overall limit, and above that, to go to need-sensitive if you need to. Now, in fact, two years ago we were need-blind; we went zero percent need-sensitive. This last year it was about 5 percent. So it’s very little need-sensitive, but absent an extraordinary and wonderfully generous gift, we’re not going to do that. Now, I’ve said, along with diversity as my number one priority, there’s nothing on the face of the earth for Carleton I would rather do than stand on the steps of Laird and scream out into the Bald Spot, “We are now need-blind!” It’s just exceptionally expensive."


3. Last comment: Carleton has weathered the past year's financial storm much better than most colleges. They continue to guarantee to meet 100% of student financial need and aid packages are very generous. As you can see in President Oden's remarks, FA overall was increased by 7% this past year. The school is actually hiring several new faculty for this coming fall, something virtually unheard of at any other elite LAC or university.

Good luck.

vossron

There are just a few schools that say they are need-blind; it would take someone on the inside to know if they are lying.

It's the adcom's job to pick the students a need-aware school wants the most, and the FA dept's job so say how many needy kids the school can afford.

Think of it this way for need-aware schools: The adcom picks need-blind and sends the picks to the FA office; when FA budget is depleted the FA office tells the adcom to stop picking needy kids.

The elites are not identified, but there are 1756 open jobs today at LACs on this one site:
Faculty Positions - HigherEdJobs.com

1190

Vossron:

Those 1,756 openings are not only at LACs. They're all open positions at all UNIVERSITIES, COMMUNITY COLLEGES and LACs combined in the US in the Liberal Arts. Unfortunately, most of these positions you can see posted are for miserably paid adjuncts, poorly paid part-timers or "no long-term prospects" non-tenure track jobs. Very few are at elites.

This year is probably the worst in decades for any freshly minted PhD/post doc to be out hunting for that academic holiest of holy grails, the tenure track. Carleton's new hires represent a true expansion (albeit modest) of the size of the faculty - a very rare happening these days.

vossron

Yes, thanks, Liberal Arts does not equal LACs; I was sloppy.

Few of those jobs are at elites; I looked around a tiny bit:

Bowdoin - 9
Carleton - 12
Davidson - 7
Grinnell - 5
Oberlin - 7
Pomona - 7
Reed - 6
Swarthmore - 6

Only 59 openings at these eight schools; not a good time to look for a job.

treeman

protestthehero91 -- 1. You look like a very strong candidate to me. 2. It is VERY important that you arrange for an interview. If your family doesn't have the resources to get you to campus, then call and arrange for an alumni interview in your area. My daughter did this two years ago. We had to drive quite a distance to get to the interview, but it went exceptionally well, and helped convince my D to attend Carleton. I posted at the time, and still firmly believe, that selective colleges use the interview process as a filter to show them who is really interested in attending (the "show me the love" filter, if you will). She applied to 11 schools, was accepted at 7, and interviewed with all 7. At 4 she was waitlisted, and at 3 of the 4 never interviewed (Princeton was the only college that she interviewed with that waitlisted her). Yes, this is anecdotal, but again, why take the risk of not interviewing if Carleton really is your first choice? 3. It is NEVER a good idea to apply to a single school if you have financial need. Some have argued that it isn't a good idea to apply to a single school even if financial aid isn't a concern. 4. There isn't much you can do about FA until you have applied and been accepted. Be honest, give schools as accurate a picture as you can, and be sure to take advantage of schools that allow you to submit additional information beyond that included on the FA forms. Once you have been accepted, you can further negotiate FA if the offer is so disappointing that you might not be able to attend.

In other words, don't try to second guess outcomes. Apply to a half dozen or so colleges, and yes, like other posters have indicated, I would include at least a few colleges that are known for being generous, need blind, and meet 100 percent of need. Only apply to colleges that you might really want to attend. Put passion and energy into each application. Interview at all colleges that you apply to, even if it is through the alumni network. AND THEN ENJOY YOUR SENIOR YEAR IN H.S. There are no guarantees (which is why you apply to several schools), but I personally think that you will be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.