Whistle Pig

You offer some interesting obsevations and ideas. Only one is one none have dared to address in hypothesizing about GC's cost ...I believe this has merit ...but it's not one even GCC would concede so why shoud I. The notion that low student-faculty ratios and thussmall classes, highly interactive faculty-student exchanges, close student advising, personalized rather than computerized or technology driven learning, pervasive highly credentialed scholars who are given substantial resources to attract and retain them ...these are all relative to what you're alleging MAY be at the root of the GCC model, which you and I might agree ...is VASTLY different than Wheaton and most other colleges and u's. No, GCC would never bring this to the fore, even if you are right ...and you may well be. On the expense side, this is where the major money goes. FA is not insignificant but it pales relative to faculty costs.

But what you've clearly illustrated in your railing is my point. These are very different places.

In the end, though you've done nothing more than speculate about the question I ask.

What is the truth of this? You don't seem to know, just like others who've offered their theories. But I believe I've offered way more facts than you have or any others in positing this question.

And would you agree to this with me? The very Christian thing to do ...just as Christ trained up his 11 to spread his model for the church ...wouldn't that be the Christian thing for GCC to do? Of course. But there are no offers. So ...at its core, one must wonder about the GCC's walking its talking ...

wildwoodscott

Whistle Pig:

I agree with mom2d&k. What's up with your not so subtle attacks on GCC? Just because you don't understand why it costs so little means that GCC is hiding something? Many in this thread have given you many reasons, both substantive and speculative, and you have steadfastly refused to accept any answer except some conspiracy. Hmm, maybe the GCC trustees were behind the Kennedy assassination.

Nobody else on this forum is trying to put one school down in favor of the other. Both Wheaton and GCC are wonderful schools. I'm very positive about GCC, but that does not mean I'm negative about Wheaton. If you insist on continuing to press your issues on this thread, you ought also to disclose more about your personal reasons for wanting to press the issues.

Whistle Pig

Like our president’s recent TV fiasco, let’s consider this a "teaching moment" to look more carefully at some specific points mom2d&k poses.

She notes: Answer is, no, I've not. Nor have you. And JUST like you, I'm speculating. So, the point is neither I nor you knows what the cost-benefit is, and more important, the impact of NOT accepting Federal monies on the sticker price.

But we DO have a very meaningful, insightful clue, which is ...GCC has had no real change in the tuition differential from other institutions since implementing that policy, i.e. the cost differential (%) was there BEFORE the GCC court case. This suggests, that while a nice talking point, it is not significant in accounting for the cost differences with others, and specifically Wheaton. UNLESS ...you're talking about the students and parents who can no long access Federal monies. There is huge impact there, which parents must bear the burden.

2. And you note: No, I’m not sure it “means” that at all. But let’s go on.

3. You go on: Well, I’m not worried about it, but I do wonder if parents are buying an inferior product for their children. No matter, whatever they are buying, it is vastly different than Wheaton. So your assumption must then be that the latter are drastically over-paying for an inferior education. I doubt Wheaton students and parents would buy your allegation.

But what I have posed is that one of those 2 might be the case.



3A. Also, you imply that at GCC, parents aren't being duped into paying for affluent bright kids. Perhaps not, but this cuts both ways, and it seems to be exposed. No matter how low, if all are paying the sticker price, nor does it allow for that poor, black student from the Hill District. They can't afford GCC. And the demographics show this fact. Doggone few minorities and dirt poor kids. Rather, only those who can afford the sticker. C.


4. You note: Is it possible GCC profs are willing to work for less? In fact, they DO work for less. Less pay, less security, less benefit …but more work. Those are facts. What we don’t know are what these vague “nonquantifiable” attributes might be? Getting to eat at the dining hall where lousy food is served? Housing on campus, and maybe even in the dorms? Underwritten mission trip expenses to Somalia in the summer? Dinner at the prexy’s manse each Sunday? Can you or anyone quantify the “nonquantifiable” items that would call a top-shelf Ph.D. physicist or historian or political scientist to CHOOSE to give up the compensation and benefits of, let’s say … Wheaton? Or Geneva? Or Taylor? Or Calvin?

Further, why should GCC profs be called to live substandardly relative to their peer professionals? So that students might be able to go for less? Sidbar question: Do you believe your pastor should be paid at an inferior rate than his parishioners might be compensated, just because he has a Christian calling? (Just asking ...)

Perhaps you see where this is going, i.e. that your model suggests that these scholars should somehow have an implicit, sacrificial calling, desire, or at least willingness to teach English to more students for less ...who come from the very same types of homes that Wheaton students come from? GC is NOT deepest, darkest Africa, that requires living in squalor among poverty stricken kids from Pittsburgh! Nor is it, beyond buying a house perhaps, dramatically different in COL than let’s say …Wheaton or Beaver Falls or Dillsburg.

But even IF this were so … all the while the college continues building facilities that are of cadillac quality. So, should a lovely student union be constructed … on the backs of these mission-minded math profs of meager remuneration? Or should students get the benefit of low tuition because their prof wants less pay …while they go home in their car to Mt. Lebanon or Shaker Heights or North Allegeheny? No, that one holds no merit altho you may be correct in assuming they are under-compensated. And in which case we must conclude that the profs from Wheaton are grossly overpaid. You see how silly your argument is? That somehow GCC profs have a Godly calling to come and labor for less among the poor little students who come to GCC?

More later.

mom2d&k

Oh my! This is just too much to respond to, but since you have still not answered my main question--what is your personal history with GCC?--I'll hazard a guess: You are a former, disgruntled member of the faculty, perhaps with a strong affinity for unions, and you feel that you were underpaid, unfairly dismissed, or the like. Or maybe the school just wouldn't hire you to begin with. I'm sorry. But your bitterness is making you less than objective, and it is robbing you of the opportunity to move forward.

I would note that your concern for the mistreated, underpaid faculty is curiously not manifested by those that actually stay and work as part of that faculty. Since Grove City is not Malibu and no one is holding a gun to faculty heads forcing them to live and work in the middle of no where, I'm going to conclude that they actually LIKE working there and are satisfied that the bargain they have struck for salaries and benefits is fair. If not, they could amply demonstrate their dissatisfaction by moving on to greener, more lucrative academic pastures. (Yeah for the free market!)

To any Wheaton folks out there, I feel nothing but admiration for your school, and NOTHING I said was meant to disparage it, although Whistle Pig seems to imply that I did.
My hope for my alma mater when I graduated over 20 years ago was that, spiritually and academically, it would become the Wheaton of the East. Happily, in both academic rigor and spiritual depth, I feel it has. Super ... now parents have one more choice when they want to send their kids to a school that takes both academics and Christian life seriously, and the affordability of GCC makes that combination more attainable for families of modest means.

Whistle Pig

mom2d ...you're entitled to your opinions and speculations. And we respect those. But it seems despite your cry for facts, a great many of which I've provided, you've offered none.

What you're not entitled to is knowledge of any on here beyond what is offered. None of that is any of your business or concern. But if it makes you feel better, I'm Harry Potter and GCC is my Hogwoarts haven. You see, even if you think you know, you don't.

But your strategy seems clear. Don't like the questions being asked? Attack the asker. No facts of your own, proclaim others have none rather than reading, winnowing, discerning. So I'll continue to ask. But know your opinions, speculations, and theories about this issue are recognized as such. No more, no less. But definitely not facts. And while you've somehow proclaimed it as such, this is nothing personal.

And you continue to refuse to offer your opinions about my questions to you. C'mon, give it a go. Stretch your logic and relections about WWJD.

Creekland

Whistle Pig, you are aware that your postings continue to make me more in favor of GCC and less in favor of Wheaton, no? I doubt I'm alone...

You continue to harp on one issue - that has been addressed several times with very reasonable explanations. Obviously, you don't believe that, and it is your right not to, but that doesn't mean the rest of us don't understand the reasoning.

You'd have done better making your point once (or twice) and dropping it. It really does leave one with the impression of disgruntled 'Potter' which makes it difficult to want to spend the time and money to visit a place you approve of. After all, if you're the representative...

You may, indeed, be very intelligent and personable, but it sure isn't coming across that way (as you stated, one only knows what they see/read).

Whistle Pig

Wolf Creekland, you make some good points.

One of which is not that anyone's offered a reasonable explanation to why one institution costs 2X the other. Or another way, why one is half the cost. Like yours, lots of speculation, theories, and in the end, all are just guessing. Seems none really knows the answer(s) ...at least on the forum.

But what we do know without a doubt, and this is fully factual and verifiable ...once observers get beyond the facade of GCC's Hogwoarts and WC's Blanchard halls ...we know that there is little comparison between the 2 institutions, their educational schemes and programs, and their people including professionals, faculty, and students. These are night and day, it's totally safe to say.

It's your choice as to which one is the better value for you. Some pick on price, and work at justifying rather than understanding why so cheap. Some prefer other criteria, picking on reputation and constituency, and work at justifying, rather than understanding, why so expensive. And while it makes no diff to me, I'm confident you'll land exactly where you belong. You'll figure out your own "value." I confess to experiencing and believing, most often we get exactly what we pay for.

And wherever that magical place is for you, pray that you'll be instructed in productive, critical thought and analyses, preparing you to reach potentially painful conclusions exposing truth. Then come back and let's share some more. Good luck.

And specific to GCC, it seems apparent that IF their's is a worthy educational model, then it would behoove them as self-proclaimed followers of Jesus Christ, to do precisely as Jesus did ...develop institutional "disciples" who can spread the Word at a similar price tag. One would think they'd want to "spread the gospel" of how to do it better at half the cost. Jesus did not want his church ...or his colleges...to be exclusive, did he. In other words (no pun intended) ...walk the talk ... practice what they portend to preach. But all the interested observer gets is ...total transparency. NOT. Remind you of anything?

And a final thought. Don't take this so personally. It's not, although some parents and students might understandably feel need to defend. They've made a life decision, hoping like heck it's ok. So rather than being defensive, find the answers and share them. That would better serve GC and future families looking @ either. Just don't buy the pablum ...or try to sell it to others.

P.S. And no I'm not. Rather, dumb and ornery. Still, I'd invite you for a beer, but don't wanna jeopardize your GCC app.

kelis

"you are aware that your postings continue to make me more in favor of GCC and less in favor of Wheaton, no? I doubt I'm alone..."

This saddens me...I can't even tell you how much. But I understand, because if I didn't attend Wheaton, I'd be right with you. However. Wheaton is phenomenal. And the idea that it might be crossed off of even one prospective student's list because of comments from a single poster whose relationship to EITHER school is unknown really upsets me.

"which makes it difficult to want to spend the time and money to visit a place you approve of. After all, if you're the representative..."

Please don't think that Whistle Pig and the hostility towards GCC expressed in this thread are at all typical of Wheaton. Come visit. If your student is female, she's welcome to stay with me, or you can meet me for coffee on campus, or you can just call with questions if you like. PM me for a phone number if you'd be interested. Seriously, while I know it's not for everyone, Wheaton is a terrific school. However, I know I would NEVER have ended up there if I hadn't visited. So please, keep considering it.

Creekland

Actually, I would never let one negative person turn me off from considering a school (for my son) though one can't help but be colored by what one reads or hears due to our human-ness.

Until about 6 months ago I knew next to nothing about any Christian college having assumed my boys would go secular as I did. I've gotten over my thought that secular is better - at least for this son - since his major, and getting it the way he wants to, requires Christian. We've visited secular options. The mindset is 100% different. He saw that immediately. I have to agree with him. Therefore... I'm looking and learning. He was willing to go to the first school he saw that truly offered what he wanted. Due to more 'life' experience, I'm researching other options for him to consider. In the end the choice will be his - coupled with finances since we have 3 boys to pay for in the next 5 years and the economy had our investments take a hit. Maybe they'll recover by then. Who knows?

That said, I'll admit to being very 'anti' Ivy. I don't like the 'chip' on the shoulder graduates seem to get from going to those schools no matter how 'great' the education is. I'm a firm believer that all people are equal (in God's sight and man's). Some just have more academic talent than others. Others might make poor choices. However, all are equal regardless of talents or experiences. Time and time again (not just here) I hear of Wheaton as the 'Christian' Ivy. If I would not let any of my sons go to a secular Ivy for undergrad, why would I consider the Christian version?

However, I'm also a firm believer that students should be studying with their peers academically. My son is not super high (not as high as my middle son will be), but he is a bit above 'average' in academic talent and SAT scores. Finding a Christian college with his major (or similar) that has a higher academic freshman profile so that he's still in the top third without being in the top 1, 5 or 10% has been challenging.

We may still visit Wheaton. Time will tell in Sept. Other than it being considered an 'Ivy' by many (including by some in my son's desired field who we talked with - and with a negative slant by them for the same reason I have against Ivies), it seems to have many positives (education, opportunities, diversity, pleased graduates). Our other negative is that it is so close to Chicago... but that's personal preference for more rural areas than cities - nothing I'd really hold against a college.

Disclaimer: Our views on Ivies don't have to be held by others. To each our own. I'm sure the education at an Ivy is good, but the trade off that comes with it is not worth it in our opinion. Others are free to feel differently - and to look down on us if they wish (more or less proving my point).

Disclaimer 2: I haven't (personally) met anyone who has graduated from Wheaton, so I've no 'real' idea if the Ivy 'chip' tends to be present. I've only heard and seen hearsay (from forums like this and in discussions otherwise). Wheaton is not 'off' our list for this reason. In Sept, when we're making our rounds, we'll decide if it's worth a few more days to head out there or if we're happy with what we've found already.

engelhardtlm1

An interesting comparison I just did:

(1) Wheaton spends about $34 million on "Instruction" every year. This amounts to about $127,000 per faculty member.

(2) Grove City spends about $38 million on "Education and General" every year. Unfortunately, this cannot be compared to the Wheaton number - which is far more narrow (Instruction is one part of "Education and General"). So, if I add up all of the operating expenses for Wheaton (except for Auxiliary Services and Public Services, as those are accounted separately), and find the share that is for instruction, and assume that this share is spent on "Instruction" at GCC, I should get a number for what is spent on Instruction. This comes to $18 million - which is $85,000 per faculty member.

(3) Cost-of-living in Wheaton, IL is 21.4% higher than the national average. Cost-of-living in Grove City, PA is 23.2% lower than the national average. This means that the cost of living is about 58% higher in Wheaton than in Grove City. If "Instructional Spending per faculty member" is a decent proxy for the average salary + benefits for faculty, then pay for Wheaton professors is about 49% higher than for GCC professors. However, once we account for differences in the cost of living, Wheaton profs. make 9% less than Grove City profs. Obviously, some of the math here is a bit "dicey", as I'm having to make a few assumptions that may not be true. What we can say: GCC profs don't necessarily live poorer lives than Wheaton Profs as the evidence suggests that, after adjusting for cost-of-living, they don't actually earn less.

If we buy Whistle Pig's "you get what you pay for" assumption, then it follows that GCC faculty should be of similar overall quality to Wheaton faculty.

Sources:

http://www.wheaton.edu/acad/accounting/Audit_2008.pdf
http://www2.gcc.edu/archive/document...ort%202008.pdf
Grove City, Pennsylvania (PA) - Sperling's BestPlaces
Wheaton, Illinois (IL) - Sperling's BestPlaces

Creekland

Thank you for that comparison. For what it's worth, I have still yet to meet anyone who has had actual ties to GCC (student, parent, 'worker in the real world') who has had anything negative to say about GCC - other than weather and food or perhaps its strong Conservative/Libertarian views...

richcasto

If one is interested in the finances of Wheaton vs GCC, register (free) on Guidestar.org and retrieve each college's IRS Form 990. Looking at their (sources of Revenue) vs Expenses might be enlightening; as would comparing year over year.

berryberry61

GCC and Wheaton are both very selective in terms of Admissions. Both are also academically excellent. I know several GCC grads who enjoyed it immensely and were well prepared for their careers (Business, Accounting, Finance, Education). Good companies do recruit many GCC grads. I assume that is the case for Wheaton as well but have no personal experience in that regard

GCC's tuition is much lower (actually an amazing bargain) but they also do not offer much FA because of this. Also, GCC takes no money from the federal government and thus is not beholden to some of the fed's regulations

Whistle Pig

Again, to reiterate, none really know this until we know the details. None have been able to offer specifics because GCC refuses to be transparent about such. There is no such thing as a free lunch. We wait for details, while proponents cry "cheap cheap." And that, we know to be true. But value is another issue, immeasureable until we know how it's done. Assuming always leads to incorrect conclusions.

wildwoodscott

Until Whistle Pig reveals his personal reasons for being so anti-GCC, I recommend that he be ignored about this fine school. He never answered this and, I am guessing, never will. See my post above, from 8/2. He likes to be very verbose in all his critical analyses, but it's as obvious as the day is long that there is something very personal in his criticisms.

Here are my personal reasons for liking GCC: 1) my son received a great education at a great price in a Christian environment; 2) he was accepted for Ph.D. studies in engineering at MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Michigan, Purdue, Georgia Tech, Illinois, and Notre Dame. He is on track to receive a Ph.D. in about 18-20 months, and his training at GCC prepared him VERY well; 3) he has many life long friends from GCC who are very cool; 4) he had a splendid athletic career at GCC; 5) he was able to graduate without any loans, thanks to his work, financial aid from GCC, GCC's great price anyway, and outside scholarships. There are other reasons, but I don't want to be as verbose in my recommendation as WP is in his criticisms. There are lots of wonderful Christian schools, and Grove City College is one of them.