Creekland

I fully agree. Anyone even remotely considering 'a' college education should be able to see it. GCC is actually one of the top of the top in Christian schools from my research and I've found several people who have been impressed with it - and only Whistle Pig against.

GCC and Wheaton have very similar Stats with regards to standardized test scores of incoming freshmen. GCC is more conservative/libertarian. Wheaton is more liberal (though not at the far extreme of liberal, but enough that conservative students mentioned it freely). GCC is in a rural area. Wheaton is next to Chicago. GCC has a lower price tag initially. Only after all aid has been taken into account will one know which is less expensive for them.

If one were to ask me what the two 'best' Christian colleges were in general, GCC and Wheaton would be it. However, one needs to consider the student's major when looking for 'the best.' For us, Covenant College appears to 'win' in that regard. Neither GCC nor Wheaton offer Community/Economic/Global Development as a major at this point in time. I have heard that GCC is considering adding it... but if so, it will come too late for my oldest. Wheaton offers it as a 'certificate,' but it's nowhere near the same level of depth at this point in time (when we look at the actual classes involved, etc).

Nonetheless, the stats of incoming freshmen still show that in the overall picture of things, GCC and Wheaton are the tops of the top (with attracting high level students and their parents) in spite of what Whistle Pig would have us believe.

Whistle Pig

scotty wildwood makes me laugh. He's like the little boy screaming "la la la la ...I'm not going to listen ...because I can't stand to know the answer ....LA LA LA ..."

All he offers is touchie feely stuff that only reveals his son's many fine attibutes and experiences. Saying not one single thing about the one single issue ...how do they do it. No speculation, no "I feel", no "my son has pals who go to church", no it's a lovely campus, none of that. Only facts. But to date ...not one single bit of genuine, first-hand information. No numbers on endowment. No numbers on fac salaries. No info on precise endowment/student. No info on budgets for faculty vs. others. And in the end, these are the only issues to lend genuine, factual insight to all of this. Just "I feel ...blah blah blah"

Well Scotty, keep up your LA LA LAing ...but people who really want to know the hard facts of value ...will tell you to shut up...and keep watching. Guaranteed. And I'll keep asking until we can get more that your type of silly, superficial stuff.

Heck I know Ivy League Ph.D's who went to Bucks Community College and Slippery Rock and have plenty of great pals and ...

Comparing Wheaton and Grove City is like comparing Isaly's chip-chopped ham and a finely cured Virginia smoked ham. Both are delicious. Both are like night and day from each other.

berryberry61

"Until Whistle Pig reveals his personal reasons for being so anti-GCC, I recommend that he be ignored about this fine school."

I agree - he is starting to become comical now with all the how do they do it posts. Fact is they do it. Whistlepig may not like the fact that Grove City can provide such a quality education at a much lower cost than others, but I bet there are tons of students and parents out there that are thrilled that they do.

Creekland

I noticed this GCC plug on the 2nd page of the 'Best' thread. It's probably worth re-posting.

Grove City students shine in history knowledge - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

I found it interesting that the Ivy schools were among the lowest scores.

Note: The article isn't so much pro GCC teaching, but moreso in the knowledge of the students it attracts. They rated 2nd in the NATION (for this history/civic literacy test) - not just among Christian schools.

Sorry Whistle Pig... even though my oldest isn't going there, I'm on Scotty's side. Plus, I think reasonable answers have been given to your ONE concern.

Whistle Pig

Reasonable opinions. But not one single informed reasonable answer. Think what you do, Creekland and Co. about conspiracy or this somehow being "personal" (it's not), but like your parental disciplinarian, don't mistake me for the enemy simply because you don't like the answer you've received.

I'm simply amazed that on a site like this, where prospective students and payers should want to know the truth (btw, that is what Christ proclaimed as his sole purpose for coming ...to testify to the TRUTH), there are more cheerleaders than thinkers really wanting to know. And definitely an absence of informed truth testifiers. And that's all I ask. I've seen plenty of lovely, colorful, "curvaceous" college catalogs and campuses.

But for all of GCC's apparently attractive assets, it flunks so far on one of Christ's great callings ...transparent truth.

Show us the facts, Jack. Make Believers believers.

But don't shoot the messenger, simply because I won't eat the pablum being served up here.

And why call for careful examination of GCC specifically and uniquely? BECAUSE it appears to have accomplished something literally no other Christian college has achieved. And it looks stunningly beautiful in having done so. But ...that only calls for closer examination, not a pass because it's pretty.

I've dated plenty of pretty girls who were, in the end, not so pretty. Now, am I saying GCC is metaphorically analogous to those nasty, bad girls who wrongly concluded a pretty face, nice complexion, and terrific bustline were sufficient? Not at all. I'm simply saying, until we know more about the very specifics of how GCC APPEARS to do so much more with so much less ...we ought to be asking padding? implants? kleenex?

Were I an interested suitor ...or the parents of a young fella about to lavelliere this lovely thing ...either way, I'd want to know the answer absent the marketing baloney. (I understand were I a Wolverine/Grover alum or paid-up parent, I might be more reticent that I could not afford or stand to know the real truth.

But what I'm 100% sure of on this test so far? No one has offered anything beyond speculation, "I think", "well, it must be this" ... and on and on. No facts, no real research, no truth.

I repeat: Refusal (vs. inadvertant omission) to provide total transparency ensures the potential and probability for discerning, thinking people to rightly wonder about this seeming "free lunch." Paul had Titus and another bro go to Corinth to gather up their money, to ensure there was no gamesmanship or shell-gaming.

And lastly ...why does any of this matter? 2 reasons both of which are exclusively Jesus stuff:

1. The transparent truth allows for truthful decisionmaking. People know what they are buying.

2. And if it IS a free lunch, GCC is being selfish, greedy, very un-Christlike in failing to instruct other fellow-Christian institutions how they too can serve so many more Christian families implementing THEIR apparently unique model of education.

It's what Jesus would do. Because it's true.

So bellyache and point fingers at me or anyone else who asks the tough question ...and refuses anything but a truthful, transparent answer, for Christ's sake.

Whistle Pig

Let's make this simple, look at it from a different, more "worldly" view ...

Suppose George and Jane Faithful are house-shopping and they run across a perfectly manicured and maintained, lovely Cape Cod in a neighborhood of $250K homes and up. A little more than they wanted to spend, but looks ideal otherwise. Great curb appeal. Fine location. Fenced in yard for the pooch. 2 car garage and a built-in work bench for George's fix-it projects. And as they go inside, all the accoutrements. 4 BRs, 2.5 baths, full basement/finished (and the pool table's thrown in because it'll cost more to more it to Poughkeepsie than it's worth, and Sven, the seller, sure as heck ain't gonna move a slate bed table himself.) New carpet. And Jane instantly falls in love with the walk-in closet with a jacouzzi tub and vanity in it. It's hers! She's in love!

And then the real estate agent drops the other shoe...and it's only $50K! Oh, but buyers won't qualify for that extra 1% on the Federal Loan because the builder's a Christian, and doesn't like messing with the Feds. And Jane the missus is saying, "Where do we sign on the line. Quick George, sign, before he changes his mind. Screw the 1%. This must be either Iowa or heaven." George frowns at her, urging her to "stay cool. Maybe we can get the dude lower. In any case, there's a whole pack of rats in this woodpile. I'm gittin' me the best home inspector I kin find! Something's GOT TO BE BROKE here, and they're not taking ol' Georgie for a ride!"

You see, ol' George is a shrewd, seasoned buyer, and after raising 3 kids almost, and buying 7 cars over the past 25 years, well, he knows the reality of all this. If it sounds too good to be true ... (You know.)


Now, fast forward a year later to George and Jane sending their #1 son Henry to college. And they visit GCC, where little Henry's been accepted. And the admissions magician waves his magic wand and proclaims ..."SPECIAL TODAY, EVERYDAY @ GCC! What everyone else is charging $250,000 for ...you can buy for $50,000 ...cash of course as we don't mess with the Feds, and oh, btw, you cannot get one of those $8K tax credit discounts for 1st time college tuition payments. And you gotta tell us today."

And now it's ol' George saying ..."Where do we sign on the line? Quick Jane before he changes his mind. I don't give a rat's behind about the $8K Funds for Fun Program. With this deal, now we can get the boat! Where do we sign???"

And despite the similarities, no one's asking, especially dear Jane ... because she's so confident little Henry'll meet some sweet little youth-groupie whose lips never have, never will sip suds with a bunch of drunken frat rats, and Buffie and Henry'll buy the house next door in Intercourse, PA, and she'll get to see the Christian grandkids everyday while Buffie the d-in-law works on her M.Div., bakes chocolate chip cookies, and works out at Christian Curves, where all the girls are required to wear baggy sweatsuits and underwired bras ... just how does one sell a $250,000 education for $50,000 ...even tho the loan arrangements are P-poor and the trustees and teachers are all Christians." Nope. All common sense goes flying out the door. Don't ask. Don't tell. Now THAT sounds familiar.

Take door #3 and don't ask any questons. "But George, what if Bob Barkley's sparking with Vanna White. You know I heard he likes the ladies, and I THINK he went to Grove City."

"Shut up and sign, Jane. I can hear that Mercury inboard humming up the Ohio. That's the ride I wanna be on here. Henry and Buffiel'll like the boat too, and who cares how much history he knows anyways." No inspection necessary. Heck George won't even read the Christian contract. "Of course we'll do whatever it says. Just sign Henry, or I'll kill you in the car."

So ...why would you do that with a house (that you know, of course, won't EVER happen, even in your wildest Christian dreams) ...but you'll turn around and sell you kid down the river without really knowing or even asking ...WHY? HOW? PLEASE EXPLAIN in SMALL PRINT!!! No home inspection needed. Take the lowball!

I feel like Sargent Hulka in Stripes. And Creekland is Frances! Lighten up.

wildwoodscott

WP refuses to explain his personal reasons for being so angry at GCC. He has not and will not explain himself. Instead, he resorts to name calling to posters, condescension toward their comments and conspiracy theories on how GCC provides a great education in a Christian environment at a reasonable cost.

As mentioned before, I like GCC because of what it did for my son, and, although I accept WP's compliment that I have a fine son, it was GCC and its fine faculty that opened the doors of opportunity that he now enjoys. I could give several explanations (as others have) on how GCC does it, but that would mean only more long posts from WP, calling me names, condescendingly telling me that I am so very wrong, and suggesting that there is some deep, dark secret that GCC is either selfishly hiding from everyone else or is so evil that it cannot be spoken.

What is Whistle Pig's connection with GCC? His many obtuse references to Western PA (which I had to google to figure out because I actually live in closer to Wheaton) tell us that he has some personal connection. I see no vitriol in any of his many posts elsewhere, like the ones about the USNA. But when he gets on the topic of GCC, all of sudden, logic takes a holiday. Why???

Dear Whistle Pig, we get it that you don't like GCC. We get it that you think that they are hiding something sinister in their finances. We get it that no explanation will ever suffice for you. Just let go of your bitterness, at least on this forum. It's not becoming of Marmota monax. Either that, or let us all know what GCC did to you to make you so angry.

To all prospective parents and students, GCC is worth a visit and a look. It is a great school, better than Wheaton in some ways, not as good in others. Check it out. (And this is what I thought this thread was about).

Whistle Pig

Read the rules of the forum. You've no business, right, nor reason to know. And you're out of bounds in your response. It makes no difference to the issues. They remain despite your attempts to distract from them. What if I told you I was a GCC parent, alumnus, or employer? No diff. The questions remain unanswered. And beyond your feelings, which are nice, good to hear.

As a paid-up parent, it's nice, good, terrific your good son had a pleasant, fruitful experience. I'm confident he'd have done well many places, perhaps particularly Wheaton. Who knows. But you've done nothing other than confirm that a really fine lad grew up and continues to be a fine lad. No edification on any of the specific details on the economic realities. This is getting to be like Obama's healthcare plan ...promise of doing lots more much better for more people at lower cost.

Be certain, my questions are fair and not personal. You should work to keep your posts the same. It's a classic, last ditch, response ...when the questions are too tough or too painful to answer, shoot the messenger, like you are. Attack the person. Do anything but work to answer a fair question with facts instead of feelings. Not very Christian-like. Let's stick to the issues, please.

Creekland

Cute story Whistle... not remotely relatable as one is comparing houses outside of Chicago vs Iowa, er, northwestern rural PA... but cute nonetheless. And, of course, the house MAY be just a good deal... as could be the education. The proof appears to be in the graduates.

Your concern is noted, I'm sure, by anyone who cares. The rest of us can look at the very reasonable observations - from cost of living, etc, - to SAT scores - to success of the graduates - and decide for ourselves if GCC might be right for our offspring. While the school doesn't have the major my oldest wants, it's still on the radar for my other two (pending what they decide to do and their likes/dislikes). It's also a school I'll still highly recommend to others who ask. You may not like it, but it's one of the two top Christian schools in the US as per SAT/ACT scores of its students. Then too, of all the people I've talked to about the school, your complaint (a non-issue for many of us) is the only negative I've ever heard. People can take the facts and analyze them as they wish.

wildwoodscott

I see that I have deeply offended Whistle Pig, which is not my intention. I do not understand how WP can so cavalierly dismiss my REAL experience with GCC and offer a FICTIONAL account which attempts to parody suburbia, Christian parenting, materialism, and GCC at the same time.

I note that this forum is getting a lot of views, so perhaps some are still interested in this exchange. It is quickly getting monotonous and is now approaching the “is too!” “is not!” debates of childhood. I just cannot figure out why WP is so apoplectic when it comes to GCC and is not on other topics. It is fascinating to me that he would assert that my son would have done as well or better at Wheaton or other schools and then attempt to scare prospective parents and students into thinking that attending GCC will turn one into a parroting shallow automaton of bourgeois American Christianity.

So, I offer the following reasons in answer to Whistle Pig’s question of “how GCC does it”, that is, how does GCC offer its education at the cost it charges relative to the costs that Wheaton charges? This is not an effort to continue the debate, but to offer the “viewers” of this post some rationale (others in this thread have offered other good reasons, by the way, none of which were palatable for WP) for GCC’s lower cost relative to Wheaton. I know that this, my longest post ever, will produce an inevitable response from Whistle Pig pointing out that I have the IQ of a groundhog. Such is my love for GCC, that I will endure his slings and arrows.

Here are some reasons for GCC’s lower cost relative to that of Wheaton:

1) Illinois is not a right-to-work state and is heavily unionized, particularly in DuPage County (where Wheaton is). Pennsylvania is a right-to-work state, which means, according to the Economic Policy Institute, that blue collar staffing wages are 6-8% lower in Mercer County (where GCC is), not factoring in cost of living. This has an effect on operations costs as well as construction costs.

2) The cost of living is 16-20% greater in DuPage County than in Mercer County. Wages and expenses are both lowered by that amount, giving GCC a huge advantage at both ends here. The advantage for Wheaton, of course, is life in Chicagoland, home of the 2016 Olympics! Oops, I guess that turns out not to be true, but it still is the home of the Cubs.

3) Scholarship and Grant aid (this does not include loans) given each year:

GCC gives an average of $6371 to 1000 (250 per class) students at GCC (College Board says that GCC gives scholarship and grant aid to 250 of its incoming freshmen last year, while USNWR says that 36% of the students receive scholarship and grant aid. Both are unlikely to be simultaneously true, but my calculations are meant to give as much advantage to Wheaton on this front. It could be that GCC gives less to upperclassmen than to underclassmen. That was not true in my son's case. His scholarships and grants actually increased at GCC. But if this is true, it tilts the financial advantage even more strongly in GCC's favor. )

Wheaton gives an average of $14,776 in scholarship and grant aid (not including loans) to 1250 students (300+ per class) at Wheaton. This is over $12,000,000 more than GCC gives.

On the grant aid issue, it might be more proper to ask, “Where does Wheaton get all its money?” rather than “Where is GCC’s secret, conspiratorial cash?” Not that I believe that Wheaton is doing anything wrong. Wheaton alums count among their number the former Speaker of the House of Representatives Denny Hastert and current Deere and Company CEO Robert Lane. Wheaton is a great school; I’m just saying that GCC is too.

Depending upon a family’s financial situation, and each school’s desire for a given student, the “out the door” cost of Wheaton could be less than that of GCC. As the car ads say, “your mileage will vary.” For me, GCC had a far greater interest in son #1 than in son #3, based on scholarship and grants offered. I accept their right to make that determination. Son #3 went to a school that wanted him more.

Still, please note that these scholarship and grant numbers all serve to make GCC’s tuition cost make sense without presuming Whistle Pig’s conspiratorial shenanigans.

4) Faculty numbers: 140 fulltime and 69 parttime at GCC
198 fulltime and 102 parttime at Wheaton

Given already the cost of living differential, this lower faculty number has a huge impact on costs. One can assert that this lower faculty number will either mean large student/teacher class ratios or that the faculty at GCC are required to teach more courses. And this could tilt the educational advantage in Wheaton’s favor, depending upon one’s major. It would not factor at all in engineering, for example, because Wheaton does not have an engineering major. In majors with lots of students, this could be important. Everyone must make a calculation of quality gained for the extra dollars expended. My own view is that the money spent at Wheaton does not equate into a similar gain in educational value. Others are free to differ in that view. Looking at the graduates of both institutions, I see no differences in outcome. One way to study it might be MCAT, GRE, LSAT, and GMAT scores, and if anyone can compare the two schools on those fronts, it might be a worthy comparison.

5) I haven’t figured out a way to determine it definitively, but I’m guessing that a similar ratio of administrative staff would be true, which again makes Wheaton much more expensive. If I’m right about proportionally greater administrative staff, these faculty and administrative numbers could mean a total faculty/admin. expense at around 40-45% less at GCC than at Wheaton, when the cost of living adjustment is factored in.

6) The student body is about 5.5% greater at GCC (2480 at GCC vs. 2344 at Wheaton). This means about 3% more income for GCC over Wheaton than if the student bodies of were equal in size (This includes accounting for the price differential between the two school’s tuitions and also accounts for the average scholarship/grant offered to the extra GCC students).

7) Cost of room and board is over $1200 per year greater at Wheaton (about 20% greater) which shows that the cost of living figure is accurate.

8) There are many small things to factor in as well. I have noticed the little efficiencies at GCC, which demonstrate, in my opinion, good stewardship. For example, the toilet paper in the public restrooms at GCC is of pretty low quality. Each person must decide in his own mind what is important to him/her. I don’t attempt to calculate such efficiencies, but anyone who visits both schools will notice them. Wheaton, for example, is more environmentally conscious (or “green” as they say), an advantage to some but this is generally a cost disadvantage.

For the college information, I used the current College Board college guide and the USNWR guide to colleges. For cost of living figures, I used several online calculators (I can’t link them according to the rules, I don’t believe. I’m sure that WP will be able to advise me on that ). It took a bit of online research to figure out the right-to-work issue—google works wonders. Some of these factors have no impact of perceived quality of education; some do. As I have mentioned before, both Wheaton and GCC are great schools; both are worth examining for students who seek an undergraduate education in a Christian environment.

All of this is for the viewers of this thread and their consideration, not to engage in further debate with WP. I’ve said what I have wanted to say, and you can tell by my number of posts that I don’t post much. And I don’t plan to post on this topic any further. Whistle Pig can have the last word. As I said, I intend no harm to him. I simply and sincerely believe that he has a personal reason for his bias against GCC.

Both Wheaton and GCC are great schools. I know GCC from the inside a lot better, and nearly everything I saw in my son’s four years there, I liked.

God bless everyone, especially WP.

berryberry61

"What is Whistle Pig's connection with GCC? "

Well, there was that gay porn star who was expelled from GCC a while ago - could it be . . .


In all seriousness, I too have no idea why Whistle Pig is so focused on trashing GCC even though numerous people have provided him answers to his question. it is obvious he has a hidden agenda.

After all GCC's finances are not secret - anyone can view them in their last annual report on GCC's website (yes, I guess GCC's auditors are in on the vast GCC conspiracy as well). In addition, GCC's form 990 (which discloses its financial position to the government) can be found on Guidestar. But rather than spend the time to look on his own, I guess it is easier for Whistle Pig to tilt at windmills and trash GCC because of some connection he had with them that went wrong