Creekland

Phear-me, you and I don't totally disagree, but not all students are better for having tried in a competitive environment. I'm sure some are. I'm equally as sure some could have done better elsewhere. I just looked up USNWR stats on Civil Engineering and personally, any of the top 10 will give one a great education (I graduated from one of them). Some are definitely less expensive and some definitely have a less competitive atmosphere - both assets to many people.

With regards to my middle son and med research, he will absolutely not do well in a competitive, cut throat environment, so why should I send him to one? It won't mean he's any less of a researcher when he graduates. He'll probably be better... There hasn't been a single researcher in the field who has told me he needs a 'top' school (meaning Ivy or equivalent) for undergrad even though he will probably qualify (grade and SAT-wise) to get in. Of course, there haven't been any that have suggested Podunk either... Several have suggested looking for a very good school where he can get his undergrad on mostly merit aid. Why should I think they are incorrect? They are in the field, working... doing what he wants to do. One would think their advice would be valid - and many have done it that way themselves. Several who are paying off (or have paid off) their debt agree AND wish they had done differently.

To a person all have said that once you get into grad school, no one ever cares where you did your undergrad. What field are you in that this is different? It could be good for future students in that field to know. For us, they have told us to look at grad school acceptance rates from the school (within the major, of course).

berryberry61

Phear me -

"The only career that I listed that is relegated to graduate schools is law"

You also mentioned Business. Quite frankly for most of the professions you are listing, you can't seriously be talking about just an undergrad Business degree.

"Also, what is a "high level of success" to you?"

Success does not equate to money. Anyone who thinks so has the wrong outlook on life. Since this seems to be your viewpoint, obviously we are going to disagree. But before I move on and you dismiss my comments, let me tell you my degree is in the Business field and if you want to talk $, I was making high 6 figures as Vice President for am organization with worldwide operations. I left that company 10 years ago as I realized there was much more to life than making a lot of money. I took 18 months off and now work for an educational institution making a whole lot less (but still a comfortable salary) and I am much happier, have much more free time and personal and professional satisfaction.

You argue that "Once again, denying that students are limiting their carer choices when attending lesser universities is sticking your head in the sand.". i would argue that not only is your perception incorrectm but making all your choices based on the almighty dollar is truly sticking your head in the sand.

phear_me

Yes, I am seriously talking about an undergraduate business degree. Those industries all hire analysts as PRE-MBA associates. Or didn't you know that?

I used the money as an indicator of success, because companies pay you what you're worth. If you want to argue that success or income isn't important that's one argument, and in many ways I would agree with you. But all of the cliche statements in the world (i.e. "the almighty dollar") will do nothing to nullify the factual reality that pedigree matters in academics and in many places in the professional world.

collegeboss

Baylor wanted me but I would never go there because of the location

berryberry61

Phear me - sorry, but I believe we will have to agree to disagree. IMO, you couldn't be further from the truth when you say "I used the money as an indicator of success, because companies pay you what you're worth. "

I have seen some individuals, who based on your scale, are paid far more than what your scale would deem they are worth and vice versa. Furthermore, using myself as an example, Was I worth 6 or 7 times as much in one job than another? The answer is no. That is the problem with simply using money as the sole measuring stick.

I think the heart of this issue for you is apparently you went to what you would term a less-prestigious school and therefore you have concluded you are earning less because of it in contrast to others. i would argue it has not much to do with the name of the college you attended but more with what you made of the experience and ultimately put forth into action in the workforce

phear_me

berry, I spelled out the heart of the issue very clearly. You missed it.

Creekland

We didn't miss it - we disagree with it. You are entitled to your views. We don't share them. Our views match berry's far more than they do yours. We left the rat race and love our life now. There's no way we'd go back nor encourage our kids to start in it.

berryberry61

phear me - au contraire - I did not miss your point, I just happen to disagree with it and believe you are far off the mark. Again, at this point, I think it is best we simply agree to disagree

phear_me

To say one isn't after power and prestige is akin to saying one isn't after academic/professional success. Neither one is causal to the other, but they are all caused by the same thing.

It would be like saying, "I want exercise to be healthier, but I don't care about being bigger, faster, or stronger." Well, your goal may be to get healthier, but lifting weights and running is going to make you bigger, faster,and stronger because they are caused by the same things.

Similarly, if your goal is academic/professional success but you specifically preclude things that would garner money and prestige, you're hinering yoursef because they are all caused by the same thing.

My experience, once again, is that people who deny the fact that academic pedigree matters (not exahaustively, not deterministically, but rather influentially) to the tragectory of one's success in most fields is either telling themselves a comforting lie to excuse their own lack of pedigree or they have a very low view/awareness of what success is. I used to think $60k a year was a great professional success, until I saw 27 year olds making $500k per year. Similarly, one may think being a lab tech is a great success, until they see someone younger running the lab.

In my experience, the one great flaw of Christian education is that it teaches students to accept mediocrity in their ambitions. Much lip service is paid to, "money/prestige etc doesn't matter" but if you're going to do the work anyways, isn't it common sense to be as influential as possible? That's like saying, "I am going to practice every day but winning doesn't matter so I won't practice as best as I can." If you're going to go out there and compete, you might as well win.

sax

phear me... where did yu get your projection figure of 1/3 will have college degrees? I just don't see that

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list...rts/equity.pdf

phear_me

Regarding education statistics:

Coming to Our Senses Report U.S. Must Ensure 55 Percent of Americans Earn Postsecondary Degree by 2025 or Risk World Standing
News: Looking Toward 2025 - Inside Higher Ed
US Census Press Releases

For the record, 28% of Americans over the age of 25 have a bachelor's degree NOW. 33% isn't really all that far away.

Creekland

Phear me - to each our own. We've been in the (upper) rat race and discovered it wasn't for us. We enjoy life FAR more now that we're out of it. Our kids have also seen it - and wonder why it appeals to anyone. There's a niche for everyone. You can keep your quest for money and prestige - and your words can influence anyone on here that might want those for their lives.

phear_me

I think I've outlined what's on the table so people can make informed choices about what they are losing, and gaining, in the college selection process.

I very sincerely wish you and your children the greatest success Creekland.

Corbett

Actually, the 28% figure is already out of date. It was based on 2004 data.

Based on more recent 2008 data, the Census Bureau has already bumped up the number to 29%.

If that seems unrealistic to you, note that it is a national average; the numbers in your community could be quite a bit higher or lower, depending on your specific state and/or metro area.

In some parts of the country, it's already here. The most up-to-date statewide values, for 2006, indicate that several states have already passed the 33% level, including CO, CT, DC, MD, MA, MN, NJ, and VT. The highest values were in MA (40.4 % of residents 25 or older held a bachelor's degree) and DC (49.7 %).

Creekland

Same thing here. It will all depend on how one defines "success." By our definition (contentment and enjoyment of life while owning our own successful business), we're there. My boys will have no problem with it. If one defines it by Ivy prestige then they'll need to consider your path.

My oldest is probably leaning toward Covenant as they do have the best option for his major with regards from people doing what he wants to do. My middle son will be taking the PSAT next month as a sophomore. It will surprise me if he doesn't score high enough for National Merit this year (though I know he'll need to take it as a Junior to get it). I feel certain we'll get oodles of info from potential pre-med undergrad places to check out and will most likely be looking for one offering a free ride with a good grad school acceptance rate... and eastern half of the US. There will be far more options than my oldest has. My youngest is 8th grade... who knows for him? He's got time. We'll let him finish Algebra first.

My time on this board is probably close to finished and I do thank everyone for their thoughts and the conversation - even if we hijacked a thread or two.