Parents of the HS Class of 2009 - Page 1877

shawbridge · 11-12-2012, 10:27 PM

Best of luck Moda. Maybe she should consider a tutor ASAP to help prep her for the final?

CountingDown, the 170 was V. I have to marvel as this is my severely dyslexic kid. We were worried years ago because in elementary and middle school, he was really having trouble with school. By high school, he was exhausted by the work (and it turns out, sleep apnea). Somehow, he managed to get great grades in HS, though we did partial homeschooling. But, we were worried about his SATs/ACTs. He just did what he continues to do. Set objectives. Focus. Develop a clear strategy. Apply concentrated resources. Smoke it. We're getting used to it, but honestly, ShawWife and I have residual fear from his past and the knowledge that he's still dyslexic. And, I know, he has to create a life that plays to his strengths, which isn't necessarily that easy. I'm trying to be make sure that he steers the ship in choosing his path, but I am trying to supply some insight and guidance. But, I'm confident that, if he can find such a path, he will continue to handle it with the same approach that he has handled challenges to date.

sevmom · 11-12-2012, 10:48 PM

shawbrige, post 28135. It's great to have these great scores but I would be concerned that his self esteem seems so tied to scores. My older kid had great scores, 800's, 780's on SAT's, SAT ll's , etc. with really very little prep. He was annoyed at the 780 briefly because it really was probably a matter of a question or two but moved on quickly. Your son will do fine and I would encourage him to ease up on himself.

arabrab · 11-13-2012, 12:44 AM

Moda, that's stressful -- but if the average was actually 70, perhaps the professor will curve it? For whatever reason, some of my CS & Systems Science classes had absurdly low class averages -- scared the willies out of me to get a score of 60, and then find out that the high score was 62. Luckily, these professors ended up (mostly) curving the grades, though I do remember one jerk who yelled at us because the average was less than fifty. (I attributed that more to the idiocy of having a test where all of the questions cascaded from the answers to the previous question, and the first question was rather impossibly hard and confusing.)

Shawbridge -- I don't think you're at all wrong to hope and guide your kid towards choices that play to his strengths. My sister dated a guy who was getting a math teaching credential because he'd always found math to be very challenging. He thought that having a math teacher who wasn't naturally good at math was a good thing. I thought it was nuts, and wondered what his students eventually thought.

shawbridge · 11-13-2012, 12:47 AM

sevmom, I don't think his self-esteem comes from the scores per se. He just thinks he should have gotten everything right.

There is a bigger point to which you are alluding. I think he (and likely most if not all of our high-achieving kids) would be better off at some point in their careers shifting from extrinsic motivation (which typically involves, in his case, exceeding high expectations) to intrinsic motivation (I genuinely love doing X and want to do it at a very high level because I enjoy it). We all learned to jump hoops in school and doing so is a rational response to the incentives the educational system sets up for us. Anxiety about not jumping through the hoops is an effective motivator. However, over time, some of us have learned to make the transformation to intrinsic motivation. It is that which he will clearly have to do over time, but I'm not sure he'd be ready for that shift now.

kmcmom13 · 11-13-2012, 06:54 AM

Lol, I'd do a temporary trade for the extrinsic motivation right about now for mcson, shaw

It's a fine balance...
And to that end, Moda, I will quote/paraphrase mcson's convenient theory about a lackluster grade in Engineering, which I will admit improved on his second exam: it is not about the grade, particularly when half the class fails. It is about whether or not you are actually learning the underlying concepts...the exam is testing your application of the concepts, but much can get in the way. I tend to not master the concepts until I've had more time to apply them. This doesn't invalidate the course -- some of my 'best learning' has ultimately been in classes with the worst grades, because I will take a risk...etc.

This was in response to a 69% (uncurved but I predict the prof will end up curving) whereby he learned that many of his answers "would have been right" in approach had he not been to use matlab.
By the time of the second exam, he'd gotten 74 uncurved, but in that one discovered that while he thinks he knows what he's doing in c++, he actually "programs like he bowls" which is to say, inconsistently. The gsi had told him he was super impressed that he'd nailed the most complicated problems brilliantly on the exam that virtually no one got, but couldn't figure out how he missed many of the much easier problems that used the same concepts. Boy o boy would I love to see someone solve that mystery...it's the story of his
life!

At any rate, now and then I'd like mcson's world to be a bit more extrinsically motivated and a little less of a cliffhanger. Eg. If he fails the eng class, he will not graduate. And yet his time seems to be spent getting As on hands-on projects such as animation, or laying out an underground humor magazine, or running sound for a play, or writing some crazy electronica, or making posters for the musical society, and of course, doting on his one true love. So he's living his life well if Armageddon were tomorrow...no doubt. On one hand, it's hard to argue with that. On the other, well, there is that whole reality program thing hanging there

You know, it just kind of hit me right now in writing that, that since grade 7 and the discovery of his brain cyst, which he feared would kill him (they weren't sure that it wasn't calcified for a while) he really HAS made some of his choices as if he had a year to live. Deep down, I wonder if that's still at work.

sevmom · 11-13-2012, 07:23 AM

kmcmom, So glad your son survived a brain cyst. That must have been so scary. He sounds like an interesting kid and hope he gets through his engineering course okay. My kid actually is a TA for C++.
shawbridge, I like your thoughts about extrinsic/intrinsic motivation!

Returning today to Virginia from a 2 day birthday trip to NC. Nice weather and a nice bed and breakfast in New Bern. That is a great area to explore-New Bern, Beaufort, Emerald Isle.

college_query · 11-13-2012, 07:25 AM

Some interesting ideas here - I've been struck how my two, while quite similar in many ways, are also quite different. The oldest D is all about doing the "right" thing, following the rules, is able to sacrifice happiness in the short term for long term goals in mind. When we were looking at colleges I suggested she pay attention to what the students looked like to see if they seemed happy. Her reply: "I'm not going to college to be happy." Fortunately she's relaxed a little bit in college; attending a school full of women just like her has allowed her to see herself in a mirror and adjust accordingly. She climbs the mountain because it's there.

S is very smart but because he's not so intense, driven and focused it's easy to forget! Life is definitely calmer with him. I think I've mentioned before he doesn't expend effort unnecessarily. He doesn't climb the mountain just because it's there; he waits until his friends are going and catches a ride with them.

missypie · 11-13-2012, 07:54 AM

Moda, I had forgotten that your D's school is on a quarter system...yet another thing that our twins separated by a year have in common. Yes, the quarters go by so quickly! Maybe your D can find a fellow student who can explain things differently. That, also, is difficult freshman year. In HS you had known the other students for years, knew who was good at what. In college, how is she to know who is acing the class? But hugs to both of you. I have a friend who flat out failed Calc her first semester freshman year....quite the humbling experience since she had never had a low grade before (or after.)

RochesterMom · 11-13-2012, 08:05 AM

CQ - my S is similar. Although he is at an IVY league law school (this is his last year -- yeah!) he makes good grades. He could have a 4.0 if he bothered to open a book. Why do I pay for those things anyway because I'm sure that that kid has never opened any of them. He's fine with good grades and figures he doesn't need great grades. He already has a job once he graduates and passes the bar. Life just seems to smile on him.

D on the other hand works really hard for everything. She is attending her stretch school and probably will graduate with a solid B average. She loves it there and seems to "fit". This is her last year also. She however is struggling to find what she is going to do after graduation. She will have an undergrad degree in biology and math -- now what to do with it....

Hard to understand how 2 can be sooo different.

TheAnalyst · 11-13-2012, 08:19 AM

The issue with perfectionism is a tough challenge, in my view. One of my stock speeches when training new employees used to be, "Perfection is not an option. Your job is to juggle multiple balls at once, some of which have higher point values than others. You will constantly be dropping balls because if you don't have more work to do than can possibly get done, then we are overstaffed. The trick is to drop the right balls." If I interviewed a student who gave any hint that doing something less than perfectly gave him heartburn, he would not be hired. There is a cost-benefit equation to every task. Time is money. Time is not unlimited. Money is not unlimited. All tasks must be completed to a good-enough level—no more, no less.

In college, the perfectionists may meet their psychological needs by studying more than the average student. In jobs where people routinely work a 50-hour week, the perfectionists among them may work a 70-hour week by staying late and working week-ends to get everything just right. However, in a job where the routine is a 70-hour week, there is no practical way for the perfectionist to get in this “extra” time, with the result that they are miserable or quickly burn out. It can be really hard for a perfectionist to find a good career fit, so those of you with the smart laid back kids will have an easier time of it.

NorthMinnesota · 11-13-2012, 10:19 AM

Great conversation and ideas this morning.

Moda...have D go to the tutoring center ASAP and also visit the prof in his office. D2 visited the tutoring center one semester when she couldn't understand the prof's accent. She said she learned more from the tutors than the prof!

D2 is still a bit of a perfectionist but I can see her letting go of some of that baggage. I think it is due to maturity and from already working in the "real" world. I think she would be very happy getting her professional certification and experience over a few years and then setting up her own office at home. D1 loves being in the thick of things and is a laid back type. She was happy to graduate cum laude and not expend time or energy to work harder. I think she would have a great time with c_q's son!

shawbridge · 11-13-2012, 10:51 AM

I agree with you TA that true perfectionism is not economically rational, although I highly value my employees' who have extremely high standards for the quality of their work. We don't bill by the hour so I don't know how much they work, but it wouldn't be hard to put in more than 70 hours in some weeks. The effort actually comes because they set very high quality standards for their work, which makes clients very happy. I don't actually think a laid-back person would do well in my firm -- although a perfectionist could not survive. I have one very smart, laid-back person, who may not last.

With ShawSon, perfectionism is not an accurate description of his approach. He is strategic at the core. Because he is dyslexic and for years had relatively low energy (fortunately, that is much improved or gone as he does two all-nighters in a row at times), he is very careful about how he allocates his time. He sets objectives. I want an A or A- in these courses, I want the professor to think I walk on water in these courses, I want to be a strong candidate for grad/B-school so I want high GRE scores. For the latter, he believes he needs extremely high scores to get into the best PhD programs in the world with full funding if that is the direction he chooses, and high GRE scores are just one more signal of excellence. For B-schools, he doesn't really know how they think about GRE scores. But, he only keeps a few goals. He's taking a course P/F this semester for the first time and is allocating just enough effort to comfortably pass. He loves playing games of strategy and he was told early on by a ranked chess player that he had the potential to be a really strong chess player if he would study the games of the masters. His response: "That would take something fun and make it work."

Incidentally, he started being asked to interview for jobs at a big tech firm and decided against it. All the entry level positions suggest/require much more programming experience than he has. The jobs that looked interesting to him require an MBA or work for a consulting firm/i-bank or a PhD. So he wrote back thanking them and saying that while he remains interested in the company, he thinks he ought to pursue a job with the company when he is in a later stage of his development. On the other hand, he applied for an analyst position at another company that would, I think, be right up his alley -- training program, part of the group designs securities to support global trading, but it would be in London. Who knows? I think TA is right that a small place that gives him some freedom and incentives to perform will be really good for him and his employer.

ShawD came home for Veteran's Day and I drove her back last night. We talked about courses. I couldn't remember what she had registered for. She needed some kind of arts class and hadn't signed up for dance (she loves dancing) because her school didn't have it and signed up for a color theory class (art), which she thinks would be OK but not that interesting. I said, "Oh that's too bad. You'd love dance." She said, "I know, but I'd have to cross-register at another school and none of them are offering ballet." Well, at 9:30 AM this morning, she told me she'd cross-registered for a dance class at another school which is not ballet but maybe a survey of different dance styles.

arabrab · 11-13-2012, 11:03 AM

Two of D's biggest strengths are figuring out how much effort/time something deserves, and an incredible ability to get things done without pushing deadlines. We had our battles in middle school and high school where she didn't always have the same assessment of how much effort something was worth, but in college and in her internship/work experiences it has paid off in spades.

What she doesn't like is drama from co-workers, and people who manufacture crises for her that could have easily been avoided if they hadn't procrastinated.

As a member of procrastinators-R-us, I can't disagree with her philosophy.

And on that note, time to get back to editing the presentation I'm giving tonight. Rather than getting it finished last night, I watched The Voice. Bad me.

downtoearth · 11-13-2012, 11:57 AM

M daughters went to a preschool that I loved because it stressed intrinsic value. Instead of answering a child when they asked "how do you like my picture?" with an opinion, they would say "tell me about your picture" " How did you like making the picture" type questions. I learned many things from this place and still call the director because I love her philosophy so much. She was also in to conflict resolution, social skills. and not having kids read at 3

Having said this, D2 tends to be more high strung, however the things I have learned and knowing my own personality have helped me, help her.
Shaw it must have been frustrating for your son when he was younger, my brother is dyslexic, we were fortunate to live near the University of Florida, where research was being done, however he struggled being pulled out for "special class" in school.(he is in his 40's) He has a genius IQ as does my older brother. But he felt "dumb" . My point is,if you are bright as I know Shaw son is, it must be frustrating to be held back, you work hard to put a plan in place and he may be simply, trying to figure out where he missed on the plan. I am always evaluating and reevalutating things.
I have always thought the best math teachers were the ones who didnt initially understand it. I find the ones who get it, dont understand why others dont. My dad made me math phobic as he was ans engineer( as well as career military) and whenever he would try to help me, I would blank out because he would get so frustrated.i t is only now for some reason I realize thst get it more than I thought. In addition I like Kmc 's idea about applying what you know, that is how I am. I have what I would consider a learning issue with memorization, when I can relate it and understand it I have always. done much better. Then there is the issue of emotional intelligence too. Which helps me in my relationships with patients and families.
I wish could impart to the kids how grades are important but to appreciate how unique they all are.

shawbridge · 11-13-2012, 12:32 PM

Success. The insurance company called to say that they accepted my contractor's numbers for both the roof and the interior. The adjuster thanked me for pushing them to move things forward quickly.