ECAdmStudent

Also, even if they are less likely to finish college, that is probably due to concurrent factors (aka, the reason why the student took a gap year, rather than the act of taking a gap year)

woody35

Wow, your alleged experiences with Earlham to this point are pretty hard for me to believe since my family has always had the exact opposite experience. Our phone calls and emails are answered promptly, our questions have always been answered and the person on the other end of the line will cheerfully stay on the phone until they know we've gotten all the information we're looking for.

While we haven't made 'dozens of phone calls' to Earlham, the quick, positive, and informative responses have always been the same whether we're speaking with admissions, FA office, registrar's office, career services, study abroad, and two different dept chairpersons we've dealt with during the past 6 months. I've visited the campus once this year and my kid has visited twice and it's been the same experiences in person with helpful and always cheerful faculty.

I've got the curriculum guide for Earlham sitting next to me right now and the same info is all available on the Earlham web site. I'll admit, it can be easier to read it all in one printed guide then to switch between different web pages but as I said, many of the questions you say you can't get answered are right there on the college's web site. If you're still considering the college, or if someone else here has similar questions, perhaps you can ask the admissions office to mail you the printed curriculum guide to use as a reference. I can't believe they'd ever refuse that request.

Regarding the required "How Shall We Live?" seminar for first year students...
Earlham DOES NOT EVER try to convert any student to Quakerism. They're very clear about that. If you don't already know this about Earlham, you haven't done your college research very well. My student is not a Quaker and has zero concerns about conversion issues. Only a small amount of EC students are Quakers, probably less than 15%.

The seminar you're concerned about IS a "standard LAC freshman seminar course" however it shouldn't be considered "a Quaker version" of a standard freshman seminar. Nearly every LAC and a whole bunch of non-LACs now require 1-2 first year seminars as part of a specially developed freshman experience. Many college students say their small-group freshman seminars were some of their favorite classes in their entire undergrad experience. For awhile now, incoming students at Earlham have had to take two kinds of semester-long seminar classes in their first year. This year, one of the seminar groups has been replaced by the "How Shall We Live?" seminar.

The title (and challenge) of that seminar comes from the inaugural speech given last year by the college's brand new president. “How shall we live?”

From their web site: "“How Shall We Live?” is an intimate, collaborative, student-centered experience that will bring students to the heart of what the College community most values in an Earlham education. In this Earlham Seminar, students will substantially engage Earlham's five Principles & Practices of peace and justice, simplicity, integrity, respect for persons and community through readings, discussion, writing and other related activities that draw on content from a variety of disciplines."
First-Year Courses/Programs | Earlham College

Regarding 'group study' for Japanese language courses, you should be glad the college cares enough about their students' foreign language education to require this! My family has done research on every college in the U.S. that offers Japanese language majors/minors and we've also visited several of those campuses. The head of the Japanese language department at another CCTL college (not Earlham) that has a separate language dorm for students who want to practice their language skills outside the classroom lamented how little time most students in the foreign language classes ever practiced their conversational skills outside of class.

At that college, even the students who applied to live in the special language dorm (where they were encouraged to speak only in a specific language in all the common areas outside their dorm rooms and meet weekly with a native speaker for that language) would move into the dorm and still not practice their conversational skills as required. This affects their grades in foreign language classes in a negative way.

For many colleges, the closest they get to offering an organized weekly language practice is to have an optional lunch or dinner table available where students studying a particular language can meet together to practice. You can't strenghthen your conversational skills "considerably better" on your own. You need the give and take of other speakers in actual conversations to improve your skills. Bravo to Earlham for expecting students to take their foreign language studies seriously.

woody35

Regarding the Drawing 1 course - it's a 200-level class and it's very unlikely many first year students would be able to get into it. Earlham requires every student to take one 'applied art' course before they graduate and Drawing 1 is one of the six different applied art choices available. (along with photography, ceramics, metalwork, painting, and weaving) Of course the college is more likely to give priority to seniors or juniors who haven't been able to fulfull that distribution requirement yet. The high demand for the art classes is because every student has to take one and as with so many other things in life, sometimes you just have to wait in line for your spot and not expect to cut in.

Earlham Course Numbering System
100-200 level courses: First-Year and Sophomore courses
300 level courses: Sophomore – Junior courses
400 level courses: Junior – Senior courses;
includes senior research, thesis or projects, and independent studies

BTW, if you read the Smith forums on CC much or you've researched Smith at many other places online, you'll see lots of mention by disgruntled Smith students about not being able to get into certain art and other courses. I know this because my student was accepted at Smith and several of the other colleges you mentioned in this thread and we've researched these subjects already. Not getting into a particular class at Earlham as a freshman is NOT a frustration unique only to Earlham.

Welcome to college, this is very common and there's usually no guarantee that anyone will get into every course they want in the year they'd prefer to take it. Lots of students complain their large state universities are much worse. It can be easier to get into many classes at LACs. They told you it was unlikely about the drawing class but they didn't tell you it was totally impossible. This is why some people take 5-6 years to graduate from certain colleges, especially those who change their majors along the way or don't look at all the course distribution requirements in advance and have some decent plans in mind on how to complete all their coursework before they even show up to college.

My incoming Earlham student worked out her basic plan and some alternate ideas for it last week (which is why the curriculum guide is sitting right here) and she knows that to double-major and study abroad, she'll need to stay on top of everything. She doesn't have to have every class mapped out in advance, she just needs to be aware of the GenEd graduation requirements at the college and her major requirements and give some thought to how she'll fit it all together during her time there. This is how you find out if you need to take any science or math courses before you graduate way before you even register for classes or show up on campus.

Here's the online curriculum guide for Earlham:
Curriculum Guide | Earlham College

Here are the GenEd requirements on the left side of this page:
General Education Program | Earlham College

Graduation requirements:
Graduation Requirements | Earlham College

If you never really wanted to attend Earlham, then why was it ever a 'safety school' for you? Why did you not spend even 10 minutes researching their English major program before you even applied there and especially before you accepted their offer of admission? You could've discussed it with the admissions office on your visit or asked for a meeting with an English professor. You could've also called or emailed the English department by now with these questions. I've researched easily over 100 colleges and every single one of them, including Earlham, has a link on their main web page that takes you straight to the degree info and requirements for all the majors offered at that college.

Here are the courses required for a major/minor in English at Earlham:
Plan of Study | Earlham College

Here are descriptions of all the English courses, including which GenEd requirements they might also fulfill:
Courses | Earlham College

woody35

Do you have to take math or science? Well, that info is clearly stated in the GenEd requirements on the college's web site.

"To fulfill the Scientific Inquiry Requirement, students must take at least two courses, totaling at least seven credits, from an approved list. At least one of these courses must be a four-credit designated Lab Course."
Scientific Inquiry Requirement | Earlham College

Faculty at Earlham may have answered, "I'm not sure" because you said your question was whether you HAD to take science/math in your first year. What courses you take in your first year will be based on your major/minor and how you plan to complete all the required courses for those plus any GenEd requirements. If you haven't yet worked all that out using their online curriculum guide, the college faculty would have no idea what you'll take in your first year there. The only thing REQUIRED during your first year is the two different semester-long semesters, one of which is mandatory for your first semester and the other which you'll choose from a list when registering for your second semester.

My student does not plan to major/minor in a math or science degree so I can already tell you that with the two degrees you mentioned, you would have no math requirements at all. However, every Earlham student is required to take 7 science credits. According to the curriculum guide, there are several science classes in the 100 level which is probably the ones you'd want to stick with. Just be aware that due to the amount of higher level classes you'd need for either completing the majors/minors you mentioned, you'd probably want to knock out your two semesters of required science credits in your freshman or sophomore year at Earlham.

Like many other strong LACs (and most colleges in general), there is free tutoring available at Earlham to help support you in passing all your classes. Take advantage of this support and office visits with your professors and you should be able to pass the science courses. Nobody at Earlham wants you to fail a single class.

Obviously, Richmond is a smallish town of 40,000 people. It does have many different stores, restaurants, etc. Not sure? Look online to find out, that's what we did very easily. Actually, Earlham gives you some help with their web page regarding local dining options: Dining | Earlham College

There's a grocery in walking (and biking) distance of campus and also a CVS, pizza, Subway, and other places. Those are just a few of the businesses I know are within just one mile of the campus. Not every town wants a 7/11 or a drugstore on every single street corner. Also, you can't even SEE a cornfield from the campus.

Yes, you can get to places in Richmond without a car. For $1.25 you can catch a Roseview Transit bus right on campus. It stops at Earlham's Runyan Center every hour on the half hour, M-F. Routes:
The City of Richmond, Indiana - Bus Routes

The food sucks at some point at nearly every college. With more research on different colleges, you'll quickly find that this is a common complaint. My student is also vegetarian and expects shortcomings to some degree when eating in large dining facilities. Earlham does have daily vegetarian offerings. Luckily at Earlham, first year students can cook some of their own meals in the dorm kitchens and choose a lower level meal plan after the first semester.

If you didn't like the 'vibe' of 'everyone knows everyone' then why did you even bother to apply? I feel bad for any student who really wanted to attend but couldn't because you took their spot.

The tornado that hit southern Indiana during your visit was more than 100 miles away from Earlham. I've lived in several states, including Colorado, and have experienced tornado warnings and actual tornados in all of them. I even saw a tornado when I lived in Los Angeles many years back, so yeah, that kind of thing can happen almost anywhere. You talked about wanting to apply to Wellesley at one point in your college search. I know that last year, they locked down with a tornado warning and the tornado passed close to campus. A family friend who attended and now works at Wellesley had to take shelter during that one and her grandmother's town earlier in the tornado's path was damaged. Freak weather incidents happen everywhere and you can't let that control your life.

It seems you didn't do nearly enough research in your initial college application process and you've done hardly any specific research on Earlham since you accepted their offer of admissions. I really do think you should take a gap year because you've already made yourself miserable just thinking about attending there and nobody wants a whiny, miserable roommate in college. A gap year can often help with personal growth and maturity. You'll have the time to re-think what you want in a college. Do some REAL research on each possible college, including all requirements for graduation and your intended majors which is clearly available on every college's web site and in mailed materials you can request from them. You may possibly discover what's really important in making a college decision and what's just petty.

Due to your lack of basic research about Earlham and the majors they offer that you say you're interested in, you still don't seem to understand much about the place. The 'dozens of phone calls' all with alleged non-responses from 'incompetent' staffers seems highly exaggerated. Which of course, doesn't stop you from posting a bunch of negative personal opinions about the college anyway. Maybe something in the 'dozens of phone calls' rubs the recipients in the wrong way. We've dealt with many of the college's faculty and staff and everyone's always been very helpful and professional toward us. Good luck with whatever route you choose for college.

ECAdmStudent

@ Woody, all great information, thanks for stopping by this thread! Minor point though - Music Theory can also count as an applied arts course - same for composition and (I think) some of the music appreciation courses.

UFOninja

@Woody35
1. Please look at the previous postings to see why I applied.
2. lol, I am aware that you can not actually SEE a cornfield from campus.
3. Is the bus new? All the people I talked to on campus told me that you can't really get anywhere without a car.
4. I am assuming you visited all your colleges before applying? Unfortunately, this isn't financially feasible to some people; I wasn't aware of the "everyone knows everyone" vibe until I got accepted and visited.
5. The tornado was NOT a deciding factor. I was merely pointing out that it was a minor turn off having people die the day I visited.
6. I actually HAVE done some basic research on Earlham. I've already viewed (numerous times, in fact) all the links that you've posted (expect the bus service). As far as I can tell, nothing on the website states whether or not you have to take math and science first year if you are doing a double major in English and Japanese Studies.
7. I am not exaggerating the dozens of phone calls. I'm glad you've had such a great experience with Earlham, but stop acting like just because you experience something, then this is the norm for everyone. For instance, let's look at the following hypothetical situation: suppose we both went to the same store and had to return something. I received superb customer service and got my item promptly refunded. You had terrible customer service and in the end the store refused to refund your item or give you an exchange. From your reasoning, I could say that your account is either "highly exaggerated" or that the reason why you received poor customer service was because you must have "rubbed the recipient the wrong way." Therefore, you have absolutely no right to post any negative comments about that store. This is a very narrow-minded point of view, is it not?

parkemuth

In the last week, I have received an education concerning the preconceptions that some have about gap years. Perhaps the best place to start is an old youtube. Gap Yah - YouTube
It is one of the best videos I have seen on the subject.It is by far and away the funniest. In he UK it went viral right away.

But even as I laugh,a great many people assume that this video represents the real truth about gap years. And this includes many admission officers. It is unfortunate. If you read some of my entries over the last week (I am a new guy but was in selective admission for 3 decades), you will see that I am frankly appalled at the labels people are willing to throw around about international gap years. My daughter was already offered admission to a selective school before she choose to do her gap year. It changed her life in many positive ways. But now that she is back she hears from others that she must have just had a blast and chundered everywhere (see video).
She was combing out lice from dying people on Christmas day in Delhi, singing Christmas carols, and sweeping floors. Not quite the luxury ride most assume. So be careful choosing. People are not as open-minded as they sometimes seem.

parkemuth

I should add that I once had a call from a guy on his gap year who was in a tree in I think Tanzania. He and his private Masai guide had been roaming through the bush and were chased by a rhino. So the video does not have 4 million views for nothing.

woody35

OP - if you've really read the college's GenEd requirements for graduation and put those together with the requirements needed for each major/minor you're interested in, you'd easily see that you can graduate without taking any math class in your first year there or EVER. Stating again very clearly: no math class is required at all to graduate from Earlham if you have an English or Japanese Studies major/minor there. Yes, that info is on their web site at the links provided above. (that you 'aready viewed')

Also as stated up thread and on their web site, every student who attends Earlham WILL need to take 7 credits of science which is two science semester courses, one of which must have a lab. These two science classes DO NOT need to be taken during the first year. However, if you're double-majoring and you stay at Earlham for 4 years, you need to be aware that you'll have several upper level course requirements for each major so you might CHOOSE to take the two required science courses in your 1st or 2nd year to free up your schedule for all the upper level classes that you can only take in your 3rd and 4th year there. Again, science is not REQURIED during your first year and yes, this is on their web site at the links you previously viewed.

It's not a narrow-minded view at all. Your "example" talks about a one-time customer service experience. We've both had 'numerous' customer service experiences with Earlham faculty/staff and it seems pretty odd that EVERY experience you say you've had with them is totally negative while EVERY experience I've had is extremely positive and informative. They've bent over backwards on numerous occasions to help my student out with stuff.

I'd hate for people to get the idea that any of Earlham's offices are unresponsive to current, potential, or admitted students when I know from personal experience that they aren't. I also know from the great experiences of other students we know who attend there that your 'dozens of phone call' experiences definitely aren't the norm.

No, Earlham being on the city bus route isn't new.

We didn't visit every college campus my student was interested in. We have a low income household so it's definitely not feasible. We just know how to maximize online resources and contacts with campus staff properly to get solid information. Written info from colleges about their major requirements has also been very helpful. The 'everyone knows' everyone' aspect of a very small college is pretty much a given. Plus, it's mentioned online on several web sites where current Earlham students and alumni give reviews and information about the college. Earlham is a bubble with less than 1200 people in it, that's the size of a village or a tiny town in this country. For many students, this is one of the most positive aspects of Earlham College.

UFOninja

@parkemuth
lol
That video was pretty funny

UFOninja

@woody35
Concerning the math class: it IS mandatory to take one. Please see the General Education link you provided and look under the analytical reasoning requirement.

Earlham students take one course carrying a minimum of three credit hours, choosing from a list of designated classes in either Abstract or Quantitative Reasoning.
Characteristics of an Abstract Reasoning Class:
- They focus substantially on properties of classes of abstract models and operations that apply to them.
- They provide experience in generalizing from specific instances to appropriate classes of abstract models.
- They provide experience in solving concrete problems by a process of abstraction and manipulation at the abstract level. Typically this experience is provided by word problems which require students to formalize real-world problems in abstract terms, to solve them with techniques that apply at that abstract level, and to convert the solutions back into concrete results.
Characteristics of a Quantitative Reasoning Class
- Using and interpreting formulas, graphs and tables.
- Representing mathematical ideas symbolically, graphically, numerically and verbally.
- Using mathematical and statistical ideas to solve problems in a variety of contexts.
- Using simple models such as linear dependence, exponential growth or decay, or normal distribution.
- Understanding basic statistical ideas such as averages, variability and probability.
- Making estimates and checking the reasonableness of answers.
- Recognizing the limitations of mathematical and statistical methods.

Does it specifically say math? No...but taking a class with "statistical ideas," "interpreting formulas," "word problems," and/or "representing mathematical ideas" sounds an awful lot like a math class to me.

Personally, I'd hate for future students to get the idea that Earlham is ALWAYS responsive to prospective, admitted, or current students, especially when I know from personal experience that this is not the case. Obviously I am not you, so I cannot vouch for these "great experiences" you and other students have had with the administration. However, I can state that my experience has been quite the opposite. Am I an exception to the rule? I don't know. Still, I believe that prospective students deserve to know about this. While you may have had a great experience with administration, this is apparently NOT the case for EVERYONE.

ECAdmStudent

There's a big difference between pure mathematics and courses which have applied math in them. You can take many different courses outside of the math department that fill those requirements. A couple courses fill both at the same time (Ecological Biology), and so you can take that course plus any 3 credit course in the sciences (could be a discussion based course with zero math or exams) and have both of those requirements fulfilled.

So no, it's not required to take a math course.

Could you provide a (redacted) example of a negative interaction you've had with faculty here? In my experience it's very rare that people have problems getting answers from the administration in the manner that you have.

UFOninja

This is what I mean by incompetence:

Once I called because I wanted to know whether I would be able to take Poetry as a second semester sophomore.
Adm: I’m not sure…what number is it?
Me: There’s a 308 in front of it. It says in the course guide you guys sent me that the Earlham seminar and an Interpretive Practices course are a prerequisite. But since you guys are just doing the Earlham Seminar now, I’m wondering how that would work. Would I be able to take the Poetry class my second semester at Earlham?
Adm: Um…I don’t really know. You don’t have to take BOTH courses to take poetry; you just have to take either an Earlham Seminar or Interpretive Practice course. But now that we’re just doing the Earlham Seminar, I’m not sure how that would work. I think you would need permission from the professor.
Me: Oh.
Adm: 300 classes are really reserved for juniors and seniors. It’s unlikely that a freshman would be able to get in one. You should really just focus on your general education requirements your first year.

About a week later I called and spoke to someone else.
Me: Since I’m a freshman, does that put me at a disadvantage for getting into upper level 300 and 400 classes?
Adm: Not at all! You just need permission from the professor.
Me: So I’m not less likely to get into a 300 or 400 class because I’m a freshman?
Adm: No; those classes are catered towards juniors and seniors, so they are a bit more challenging. However, your class year plays no part on whether or not you can take the class.

Then there was the time I called someone at NSO. Our conversation went like this:
Me: I’m flying out and so I plan on picking everything up once I actually get there. I don’t have my driving license yet, so my mom’s wondering if she’ll have to come out with me to drive me to the store so I can pick up some things.
NSO: That’s a good idea. Since you don’t have a car, the earliest you would be able to pick things up at the store would be Sunday during NSO when we’re all going to Walmart. But that’s pretty late…
Me (looking at orientation schedule): Yeah, that’s really late. Also, I really don’t want to be sleeping on my bed for two nights without sheets or a mattress cover or anything…
NSO: That’s understandable.
A few days later my mom called Earlham to ask some questions. After she was done, she told me that Earlham said I’d be able to go to Walmart anytime I wanted, because they had a shuttle or something running the entire first day of NSO. (A big thanks to woody35 for clarifying that with the bus schedule link )

I’ve called various times to ask about science and math courses. My question is always the same:
Me: Do I have to take a math or science course my first year at Earlham?
These are some of the various answers I have received from different people:
Adm: I don’t know.
Adm: Ummm...I don't think so, but I'm not positive.
Adm: You must take a math course and two science courses before you graduate.
Adm: We don’t require a math course.
Adm: The Earlham Seminar is required of all first year students. *Gives me a description of the course*
Adm: You should talk to your adviser about it.
Adm: It depends…everything will make a lot more sense once you get here!
A simple “yes” or “no” would suffice for this question.

Oh, and this is probably the worst conversation I’ve had with administration:
Me: Hi, my name is _____ and I’m going to be a first year student at Earlham in the fall. I was wondering if I have to take any math or science courses my first year.
Adm: You have to complete the general education requirements before you graduate.
Me: I know, but do I have to take any math or science courses my first year?
Adm: You do have to take the Earlham Seminar first year. That class is required of all incoming students. *What follows sounds like a paraphrasing of the class description on their website*
Me (interrupting halfway through the description): Yes, I know I have to take the Earlham Seminar, but do I have to take any math or science courses my first year?
Adm (short pause): It depends. Your adviser will discuss everything with you during New Student Orientation. Everything will make a lot more sense then.


Gah, it's so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!

ECAdmStudent

Yikes. That's very frustrating. I'm going to PM you with some more questions, I kind of want to get to the bottom of this.

parkemuth

there is another one that is not quite as good but the eton, harrow, cheltenham ladies crowd do love this video.