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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • crimsonmom2019crimsonmom2019 Registered User Posts: 104 Junior Member
    @Zinhead If you flip the question, I suspect the answer is no. I also don't have a good solution as IMO there isn't one. As @dragonmom, pointed out, it is human nature to support friends/associates, winning, family, etc. She put it much more nicely than I do. I believe humans are selfish. We have a very difficult time advocating for something that might end up hurting us individually even if it might be for the greater good. Which is why I think everyone should not dig their heels in pro/con on any of the categories. Thanks for the article and info about Andrew Gelman rebuttal. Will definitely read both.
  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger Registered User Posts: 1,147 Senior Member
    edited February 13
    @crimsonmom2019 Additionally, I go back to a previous question of why such heat around AA and not other categories who receive a boost? Could it be that those boosts are in categories that benefit whites in particular?

    I think the answer to this is a no. Most people view admissions through the lens of how it affects their kids and 99.99% of whites will never be in a position to make a multi-million dollar donation as a true development admit. However, if they understand accounting 101, they realize if a college gets fewer donations, it either has to cut spending or find some other way to raise revenue.
  • ZinheadZinhead Registered User Posts: 2,303 Senior Member
    @Snowball City -
    I know it is not your argument so I am not calling you out on this. I hope you have been able to suggest to people saying " ..When affirmative action was started, there were few Asians in the system, and affirmative action effectively called for whites to give up spots to blacks and then Hispanics..."

    that whites were "not giving up" spots to minorities. Minorities were being given access to spots previously denied them, either through outright segregation or lack of recognition that in large parts of the country minorities did not start from an even playing field.

    I fail to see what the difference is between "whites giving up spots" and "minorities were being given access to spots previously denied them."
  • Snowball CitySnowball City Registered User Posts: 1,107 Senior Member
    In all seriousness, I think that is the crux of the problem as we wrestle with this as a society. It is difficult on the internet. I am being sincere not snarky.

    I don't see access to college as a zero sum game. I don't see how providing opportunities for everyone should mean that the people with current access feel disadvantaged without examining if this is coming from a position of entitlement.

    There is a phrase I see in different iterations on the internet: When You’re Accustomed To Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression.

    I know Privilege is a hot button word so I prefer to use Advantage but I am still not happy with that choice of word.

    Perhaps a family based scenario would work better. If you are Dad's favorite child and the other child starts getting attention, you can either throw a tantrum or be happy for your sibling.

    Let's support one another. Let's not hog resources. There is enough to go around.

    Signed,
    An Idealist lol
  • crimsonmom2019crimsonmom2019 Registered User Posts: 104 Junior Member
    @roethlisburger Fair. However, that line of reasoning does not work for the legacy category and we certainly don't have the same public heat about it either.
  • IN4655IN4655 Registered User Posts: 205 Junior Member
    I'll stand by the notion of a AA being completely ridiculous. Now if we want to give a boost to people that have not had as many opportunities, people from lower income families, I am all for that.

    @snowball city I find it odd that you support AA with the majority of what you have said. You talk about how the privileged feel disadvantaged by AA but there are many privileged URM's out there and plenty of non-privileged non-URM's. The majority of the nation is far from the days of severe racism where people are being held back for being African American.
  • dragonmom3dragonmom3 Registered User Posts: 220 Junior Member
    edited February 13
    agree with @IN4655

    Or have a grandparent from SPAIN......
    Is that such a handicap to overcome?
  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger Registered User Posts: 1,147 Senior Member
    edited February 13
    @crimsonmom2019

    If you read through some of the threads on legacy status, a lot of posters seem to think there's two types of legacies Group A: active alumni with a history of making $10k++/year donations consistently over many years and group B: normal legacies from middle class families. The group A legacies get admitted, which accounts for the legacy average, and the group B legacies get very little advantage in the admissions process.
  • Snowball CitySnowball City Registered User Posts: 1,107 Senior Member
    @IN4655 Socioeconomics are also taken into consideration. The hard thing is that most of the lower income people do not have access to the activities and educational enrichments that lead them to even think about applying to anything other than their local community college or state school, if they even go on beyond high school. I volunteer with a group that works with low income or first generation high school students and gets them ready for college.

    My privileged URM kids had super high ACT scores. How do you know that wasn't the biggest factor in their admissions to college? In fact we found when we visited 2 of her acceptances, that she had not been considered in the URM pile and was not invited to URM specific events. Or perhaps they were admitted because they were from a rural area of a rural state aka geographical diversity.

    I won't touch your comment about racism. It makes my heart ache.


    @dragonmom3 Even if one person has potentially found a loop hole, it is no reason to throw out the concept of making opportunities available to a larger swath of our country's population. . And of course you do not know the ins and outs of his application. Both my kids had extensive involvement in ECs that were not at all related to school and that few people, even friends knew about. Why does this bother you so much?
  • dragonmom3dragonmom3 Registered User Posts: 220 Junior Member
    Somebody's quite touchy (overly defensive) on this subject.
    It just seems to me that a lower bar based on grandparent's country of origin -all things equal- is silly and antiquated.
  • crimsonmom2019crimsonmom2019 Registered User Posts: 104 Junior Member
    @roethlisburger From my perspective, it doesn't matter. An advantage is an advantage is an advantage. Some advantages bigger, some smaller, but one is always able to be a member of an advantage group in a particular year at a particular school. Meritocracy on it's own does not and can not exist in college admissions (@zinhead I held Andrew Gelman's position prior to reading his blog) so best to try to help guide our children to a host of schools to enjoy their collegiate experience and move along.

    Look in full disclosure, I happen to have a child who falls in the athlete category who will be given a recruited spot at a much sought after college. Would she still get in without athletics? Not sure she would. Lots of fantastic over 4.3 GPA students do not. Would her checking the African-American box with that GPA get her in over a white or Asian student with an over 4.5 GPA under the AA category? Maybe. Is that fair? I'm sure it can be argued all sorts of ways. Selfishly, I'm going to argue on behalf of my kid.
  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger Registered User Posts: 1,147 Senior Member
    edited February 13
    @crimsonmom2019

    The other assumption you're making is legacy = white, non-Hispanic. Even 16 years ago, based on some CDS data, some elite colleges classes didn't have many more non-Hispanic whites than the college age population at the time. Fast forward another 15 -20 years, after those cohorts have college age kids of their own, and I doubt the legacy applicant pool will skew noticeably more white, non-Hispanic than the general applicant pool.
  • Much2learnMuch2learn Registered User Posts: 3,999 Senior Member
    For Asian and female students who are frustrated with the increased difficulty of admissions at good colleges, I believe that Lehigh is one university that is working to increase their percentage of both. Last year 8% of Lehigh students were Asian and about 45% were female.
  • websensationwebsensation Registered User Posts: 859 Member
    edited February 18
    I am all for affirmative action policy for students from families who come from "poor" background, but I am not in favor of any affirmative action policy for URM. This is like asking NBA or NHL to diversify its players more. Because there always will be other factors than meritocracy at play, colleges should try to be as merit-based as they can.
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