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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    edited May 15
    @ELopez1275 i gave you sources last time, they are plastered all over

    Your source was about white women and JOBS, not white women and college, which is what you claimed. When you provide a source you should actually read it first, to see if it supports what you are claiming it does. Yours didn't.

    In this latest case you are asking why it's OK to discriminate against Asians but not Jews, and again provide zero evidence for the claim that any college DOES discriminate against Asians but not Jews.

    I know how to do a google search. I also know that everything that comes up in google isn't automatically true or even cogently argued just because it's "plastered all over".

    This one isn't even relevant: http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/The-most-heavily-Jewish-US-college-and-other-facts-about-Jews-at-American-colleges-437701

    This one ( https://philebersole.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/asian-americans-jews-and-ivy-league-admissions/ ) could be relevant, though it's someone's personal blog describing the work of Ron Unz, but includes so much incorrect information that it's hard to take any of it at face value. For instance:
    admissions process at Ivy League universities is a subjective process, based largely on interviews supposedly to determine whether the applicant is a well-rounded person. This system came into existence as a covert means to cap the numbers of Jewish students without setting explicit quotas, he wrote; now it is used to cap the numbers of Asian-Americans.

    I don't think there is a single Ivy that requires interviews and none count them heavily, at all, to the point that none even offer them with admissions staff, only with volunteer alumni. So how can interviews be used by admissions to cap numbers of anyone?

    Then he cites science competition winners as evidence that Jewish students have a leg up over Asian students.

    But let's say the notion that Jewish people are favored over Asian people in college admissions is correct.

    Who, where in this thread, is anyone saying that would be OK?
    Mind you Jews make up a smaller propoertion of population and larger at ivys than asians. they are basially crazy overrepresented at top schools

    As a % of the population, so are Asians. They make up less than 6% of the population. According to your article above, about 20% of elite colleges.
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,000 Member
    @OHMomof2 I don't think anyone is claiming to know for sure about anything. But you cannot argue with the overall trends that we see and hear about...I'm sure some URM's would have gotten in anyway, without AA helping them. But MANY of them were in the shorter stack and you cannot argue that that helped. And unfortunately, depending on the school, many Asians find themselves in the taller stack. This is just a reality.

    @ELopez275 I actually see your point a little better about the Jewish people now based on your last post. But I don't think religion is a factor and I think culturally, the Jewish culture highly values education and therefore many Jewish students perform well. So, to your point about there being a lot of Jewish students in the Ivy league - I think those students were evaluated like regular white students and it just so happens that many of the white applicants with strong stats happen to be Jewish. That's just my take. There was a time when Jews were denied admission to certain colleges because they were Jewish, but I really don't think there is any advantage to being Jewish today in that it gives you a leg up in college admissions. So yes, Jews like their non-Jewish peers might have a bit of an easier time with admissions than Asians..but it's not because they are Jewish, it's because they are white.

    Hope that makes sense. And again, it's just my opinion.

  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    edited May 15
    I completely agree that AA exists and it is there to help URM students, @collegemomjam . I just object to the certainty of "so and so got in because he's ____" because we can't know.

    Many (obviously not those that admit by stats only, and there are many of those though few among the elites) colleges claim to evaluate holistically, meaning race or ethnicity, family income, education level of parents may all be considered, in addition to the core academic factors like teacher/counselor recs (one helped others after class every day and the other was a jerk) , grades/rigor, test scores and other achievements like academic contest wins and awards, and then all the extra curricular things like athletic ability, legacy status, artistic/musical ability and whatever else - starting a company, fluency in languages, extraordinary service, state/region lived in, quality of high school, etc.

    Then throw in the added complication of major applied to - that is a major factor in admissions at some colleges. Jane got into Berkeley and Judy didn't but Jane applied to be an Bio major and Judy applied to computer science and the latter is much more competitive there.

    There's a lot of stuff besides raw stats and ethnicity being looked at, and it's not possible to say any one kid got in solely because of that one factor.
  • AerophageAerophage Registered User Posts: 10 New Member
    Great...Read through all 37 pages of this thread and now feel guilty about my college application. Lower Middle-Class, First-Gen, African-American male with a 36 on the ACT now feels more like a crutch than an accomplishment.
  • ZinheadZinhead Registered User Posts: 2,407 Senior Member
    edited May 15
    On the bright side, at least you did not read the prior 11 editions of this thread.

    You can start here if you like:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/651345-race-in-college-admissions-faq-discussion-1-p1.html

    Congratulations on the 36. Less than 2,300 test takers score that well.

  • theloniusmonktheloniusmonk Registered User Posts: 636 Member
    @OHMomof2 - I was oversimplifying, you're right that they don't do that quick a sort into piles. They do take a few more minutes to look at recs, essays before assigning a rubric and them comparing with the other person(s) who has read the application. However it will take a lot for the URM with a 34 to get in the reject pile and the Asian with a 25 into the accept pile.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    It will take a lot for anyone with a 25 to get into the accept pile at a very selective school @theloniusmonk - they better have something special going on, whatever their race or ethnicity.

    ...and a 34 is a pretty baller score for anyone, though it is never enough on its own.
  • websensationwebsensation Registered User Posts: 871 Member
    @collegemomjam I am all for diversity as long as it's applied to all areas, including professional sports, acting etc. I also know Asian-American students who don't want to go to certain good schools because they are perceived as too white. It works both ways. There are good and bad points. Generally speaking, I am for letting the market forces and competition determine the students makeup, and I feel that any argument against this should bear the burden of making a strong case. I also think the reasons for race-based Affirmative Action are getting weaker and weaker and should be replaced by income/asset based factor or first-generation.
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,000 Member
    As long as there is a more fair replacement, I agree. But you are saying two different things....letting market forces determine college admissions vs. making new rules based on income/asset or first gen. Which one is it? Market forces would probably result in less people from the lower socio-economic areas getting into the better schools because those people first of all don't have the same educational opportunities from the second they are born and on top of that don't have access to the tutors and services to help them perform as well on standardized tests and in school in general. I'm not saying we need to level the playing field completely, but having some kind of AA to give more opportunities to the disadvantaged is needed. People in these communities need to have a shot at the american dream too, and they desperately need role models.

    To get at the problem discussed earlier of AA sometimes helping the wrong URM's, I do think AA should be based more on "neighborhood" than ethnicity. For example, a white kid in the Newark public system should justifiably be held to a lower standard than a Hispanic kid from an upscale school system or prep school.
  • ELopez1275ELopez1275 Registered User Posts: 38 Junior Member
    How do you just omit an entire survey as false because it's a interview? There are many surveys where the ethnicity applicants claim was Jewish. It's not my job to Google the mfor you. I mean how do you know x % of white students attend a college if it isn't from interviews or surveys?

    And your claim that Asians aren't discriminated are absurd. Please see why UofC schools aren't allowed to discriminate anymore after the NYT published a report showing Asians had to score x points higher than their white counterparts. This isn't culture or projecting assertions but about statistics

  • ELopez1275ELopez1275 Registered User Posts: 38 Junior Member
    edited May 17
    And funny enough the DOEducation DOES release statistics that would make these decisions easy, plausible , and pretty much automatic (ie control/adjust an SAT score of a poor black/asian child in a newark/jersey city school district and present the SAT score as such). Hell they can even automate it when they use SATs scores as negative filters at top schools

    But they DONT do it....not because they care about diversity, but becaus ethey can present the facade of education and diversity by giving minorities who don't deserve affirmative action (Nigerians or white Cubans)

    These days I'd say many inner city African Americans, middle easteners, and central americans are in FAR dire need of affirmative action than Nigerians/Cubans/white American Jews. For Christ sakes they were spied on the NSA, called rapists by the President, called to be ban/discriminated by their religion/national origin.

    A sad part is within the Latin community tthe Cubans have a notorious reputaiton for basically 'getting it all' for nothing, it's no wonder why we have them insulting blacks in the FL state house. If you never had to fight for or were denied eduational opportunities, would you be willing to fight for them, or care for the opinions minorities like blacks who originally marched for them? I doubt it.
  • theloniusmonktheloniusmonk Registered User Posts: 636 Member
    @Ohiomomof2 wrote
    "I don't think there is a single Ivy that requires interviews and none count them heavily, at all, to the point that none even offer them with admissions staff, only with volunteer alumni. So how can interviews be used by admissions to cap numbers of anyone?

    Then he cites science competition winners as evidence that Jewish students have a leg up over Asian students.

    But let's say the notion that Jewish people are favored over Asian people in college admissions is correct.

    Who, where in this thread, is anyone saying that would be OK?"


    Before college apps started soaring, some Ivies did require interviews, and Brown still does today. His point that interviews were added in the middle of the 20th century to put quotas on Jewish applicants is true. When I was applying (early 80's) most of the ivies screened applicants, then gave interviews to the top candidates, so you needed an interview to get in. That probably still doesn't happen because of the volume of apps.

    Back then colleges used the term well rounded, now they use holistic to put quotas on Asians. That's a fair and well substantiated point, there's data to show that Asians need to score much higher than URMs, like 200 pts on a 1600 pt scale and 140 pts I think over whites.

    Asians, like the Jews before them, win a wide share of math and science competitions. When the Jews were winning, the they saw an increase in admission to the elite colleges -- that is not happening with Asian American students to the extent it did with the Jews.

    I know of one Asian male who was so far ahead of his peers in a highly competitive high school (1500 is 85th percentile), won group and individual awards at the math and science competitions, as talented and accomplished a kid I've seen, who was w/l at one of HYPS (got into M). And he's not a book nerd who's only good at math and science, he played a varsity sport and has excellent writing skills. There is no doubt, none, that if he were anything but an Asian male, he'd have gotten in anywhere. The other counter is that only upper middle class can afford the trips, but a lot of them were paid (e,g NSF). People that believe discrimination is not happening in college admissions don't want to accept that it is a reality for many Asian-American students and other unhooked ethnicities.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    There is no doubt, none, that if he were anything but an Asian male, he'd have gotten in anywhere.

    One talented kid didn't get into 3 schools with 5%ish acceptance rates (but did get into one) and that's the source of your certainty?
    Asians had to score x points higher than their white counterparts.

    The whole "SAT points higher for different racial groups" argument is traced to one single study - Espenshade - that has been discussed ad infitum here and I believe is flawed for various reasons. You can search this thread for "Espenshade" to read all of those arguments if you like.
    These days I'd say many inner city African Americans, middle easteners, and central americans are in FAR dire need of affirmative action than Nigerians/Cubans/white American Jews.

    I agree with you. But "Nigerians/Cubans/white American Jews" generally have much higher grades and, especially, test scores than inner city "African Americans, middle easteners, and central americans" so there are lot more of the latter group that make the cut, so to speak. Which is probably why elite colleges also consider first-generation status and income level.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    Please see why UofC schools aren't allowed to discriminate anymore after the NYT published a report showing Asians had to score x points higher than their white counterparts. This isn't culture or projecting assertions but about statistics

    UC schools dropped affirmative action completely (and as a result has a very low percentage of African American, Mexican and other URM students).

    Califorina also has a much higher % of Asian people - http://www.asiamattersforamerica.org/sites/default/files//field/image/asian american share of population.png - than any other state so their high representation in UCs would be due, at least in part, to that.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 9,371 Senior Member
    @theloniusmonk I know of one Asian male who was so far ahead of his peers in a highly competitive high school (1500 is 85th percentile), won group and individual awards at the math and science competitions, as talented and accomplished a kid I've seen, who was w/l at one of HYPS (got into M). And he's not a book nerd who's only good at math and science, he played a varsity sport and has excellent writing skills. There is no doubt, none, that if he were anything but an Asian male, he'd have gotten in anywhere.

    This kid got into MIT. Out of 19,000 applicants last year to MIT, over 17,000 were rejected. That's awesome for him. He beat astounding odds.

    He was WL at one of HYP? Let's look at those odds. Last year:

    H: 39,044 applied, 37,014 were rejected
    Y: 31,455 applied, 29,483 were rejected
    P: 29,313 applied, 27,429 were rejected

    And you know this kid would have gotten into all 3 if he'd been anything but Asian? Right.

    Numbers courtesy of https://www.forbes.com/sites/willarddix/2016/05/24/rethinking-the-meaning-of-colleges-low-acceptance-rates/#17b3dc161dd0
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