r6mile

By many European universities' standards, a European high school diploma equals an American high school diploma plus two years of college.
Why is it that the American system is so complicated and requires so many things (with all its SAT's, ACT's, AP's, CLEP) to actually equal a European diploma such as the French Baccalaureate? Do you think it has to do with the American standards of education? And why is it that in order to get into a good American university you need a huge amount of extra-curricular activities and leadership compared to European universities, where a good grade in your Bac, Matura, Selectividad, or others will get you anywhere?
What are your views on this?

Tarhunt

Several things:

First off, "European" education is not homogeneous. Educational systems can vary a great deal from country to country. I hope Marite chimes in, because I think she knows a great deal about this (certainly more than I).

Based on my limited knowledge, however, I believe that some European systems, if not most, begin to separate students at a fairly young age and track them into different kinds of schools. Those with academic potential go on to accelerated schools. And it is these students who go on to college.

In the US, we have a few accelerated schools (usually self-selected and sometimes competitive), but for the most part, we put all the tracks into single high schools. So, a kid can to the local Garfield High and take an AP/IB/Honors track that is accelerated, a regular college prep track that isn't, or even remedial track.

Then, many more of our students (as a percentage) go on to college. Some aren't suited for it and drop out, but they may get another couple of years in, anyway.

The EC thing, I think, reflects American culture, and even British culture to a lesser degree. Americans tend to grant less prestige to pure learning, here. For instance, it really isn't OK for someone who is not a medical doctor to present him/herself as "Dr. Someone." In most of Europe, it's a title of great distinction and I know Germans, for instance, who have insisted on the title. In the US, it's considered pretentious.

There is definitely and anti-intellectual strain in the US that's pretty ugly. The common man is often quite sure that, the more one knows about something, the less what they know should be trusted. For that matter, the less someone knows and the more sure he is about it, the better.

As for the elite schools, they certainly value academic excellence, but they are also looking for other qualities that would tend to predict that a particular admit will end up mattering in affairs of the world. That includes evidence of leadership, drive, social skills, etc.

warblersrule86

Unlike many countries (like the UK), the US allows you to apply to as many colleges as you want. This increases selectivity quite a bit. HYP have RD admit rates around 6%. In comparison, Oxford and Cambridge have overall admit rates of 25%, and certain subjects have admit rates around 50%. Nearly all applicants to top colleges have superb academic records (70% of applicants at MIT), so other factors come into play.
You mean, as opposed to GCSEs and A-levels in the UK or the Gymnasium/Abitur system in Germany? It's not really more complicated; it's just different. I'll agree that the average university-bound European student is ahead of the average US high school student, but AP/IB students are certainly comparable to their European counterparts.

r6mile

Yes I know, but that is exactly what I was trying to say. In the US, unless you voluntarily take AP/IB-type advanced classes, the standard system doesn't really prepare you, and your courses and everything are up to you. I feel there is too much flexibility in the United States system. Unlike in Europe (France or Spain are good examples), where there are higher standards and paths pre-selected for you (Sciences, Literature, Economic and Social Sciences, etc...) and you basically choose one of them, and that one prepares you for a certain type of career. You don't choose your courses (the A-levels are a mix between the two, you can choose your courses but they are higher level), instead, you choose a set of courses. You choose this set of courses in your last two years of high school, much like the AP and IB, which you normally take in junior and senior year.
I mean I guess it's all got to do with the culture, but I thought it would be interesting to compare.

Tarhunt

r6:

Personally, I'm very happy that our children don't have to take a test to be tracked into one or another course, or choose very early what career they want and take courses towards that career. I don't think there is too much flexibility in the US system.

b@r!um

I would like to add that in my German state (Bavaria) only 20% of a class get the Abitur which is required to study at a university.
I think those pre-selected paths (which is decided in 4th grade!!!) are ridiculous... One weak subject area (e.g. sciences) is enough so that you probably won't get the Abitur because you won't be able to handle e.g. the science course load in middle school (where everyone is pretty much taking the same classes). I have seen many kids gifted in the arts and humanities drop out of the Abitur track because of the science requirements, and strong science students struggling with their second foreign language.


Yeah, that or 4 APs or a 1300 on the old SAT.

Tarhunt

4th grade!!! Yeah. That's a lot like the British system used to be with its 11+ exam. Might still be that way. Don't know.

nbachris2788

In places like Western Europe and Eastern Asia, the system separates the cream of the academic crop from an early age, thus negating the need for an extensive testing system to choose the "best". Also, there's a good reason why even though Europe and Asia have better performing high schools, most of the world's best colleges are in America. I think the best American colleges offer a degree of freedom and academic attention that is unmatched anywhere else in the world.

Tarhunt

When you say that Europe and Asia have better performing high schools, are you comparing the high schools for the academically "selected" kid to US high schools for all kids?

shennie

romile: You also need to understand that there are over 3000 colleges in the US. Just about anyone in the US who wants to attend college can find one that will take him or her. The school might not be well known or discussed here on CC, but Americans believe strongly that anyone who wants a college education should have access to it. Students who do not have high enough grades or test scores out of high school have the chance to improve in community college. Older students can also be admitted based on work experience. So in the US there are lots of opportunities for people to attend college through out their lives.

cellardweller

Unless you want to prepare for the ultra-selective Grandes Ecoles the French secondary system is not particularly specialized. With a Bac from any of the three standard tracks (Science, econ or lit.) at any of the 12,000 high schools (lycees) you can pretty much study whatever you want at University. You can study law for a year at the Sorbonne and then switch to economics if you don't like it. The problem is mainly that nearly 80% of all high school students now pass the Bac and the universities are overwhelmed. They are notoriously underfunded and classes of 300-500 students is the norm for undergrads.

I don't fully agree that the AP/IB system provides direct parity with the the French Baccalaureate system at least in the natural sciences. Most of those who do well on the French Bac do well on the IB which is also available in France, but the reverse is not true. There is no such thing as multiple choice tests on the French Bac which typically requires extended answers with proofs.

The curriculum is the same throughout the country which provides the advantage of standardization but potentially the drawback of lack of experimentation. French science students are required to take two years of calculus, 3 years of physics and chemistry and two years of biology in high school. It would be hard at most high schools to build a comparable program with Honors and AP classes only.

Another major difference is that school days run from 8:00AM to 5:00PM and the school year does not end until July. The drawback is lack of time for ECs and sports and greater risk of burnout.

Everything considered, if you live in the US and have access to a high school with lots of AP/IB options and load up on advanced courses you can probably get a fairly equivalent education, while still have some time for ECs. The AVERAGE high school student in France on the other hand is going to be much better prepared for college, which is why the Baccalaureate is so well regarded by US universities.

Proximo

r6mile:

"By many European universities' standards, a European high school diploma equals an American high school diploma plus two years of college."

This is more then truth.
My name is Slavisha. I came from Serbia, country in Europe. I finished my college there. I studied astrophysics and astronomy. Before that I finished electrotechnics highschool.
In USA I came before 4 months and I took a book from my friend who studies same colledge here now. The most imoprtant subject in my college is mathematic and physics. In his book (physics II) from second year of his college I found nothing more than my physics from third year of my highschool.

Many of my countryman who came here they have the best posibile marks in highschool and on SAT and on college.

Before I came here I spoke with one of my profesor who make Phd on Cambridge university but before hi finished colledge in Serbia. His opinion about different between USA and Serbia system of education is that in Serbia, students learning everything abouth everything and they learning much more complicated stuff than student in USA. They learning how to solve complicated problems on diferent level. But, in USA student have better condition for study. Especialy if we speak abouth pure science like physics, biology, chemestry...My case, when I was on second year of my college I had to know every known constellation what we can see on the sky. I had to know it shape shape, the name, how to find, where to find, the name of his stars, everything abuot those stars... That a lot of information but I just onse time sow those constellation with telescope. ( I will not talk about reason why, my conutry is very poor and...) But, in USA on college, students can see almost every day that what I have to know, what I have to have in my memory.
In my high school I had next subject:
mathematich, physics, biology, chemestry, and mother lenguage during 4 years of high school
I had last two year philosphy, psychology,sociology and low.
I had in every year of high school 7 different subject abouth electronic, tehnology.
Every year I had 14 different subject.

On my colledge I had every year 10 different subject and every examination is based on orally ( You stand front of profesor and write on blackboard and answering on his question) and writing part. When you pass writing part you have to prove, to demonstrate that to profesor orally. If you pass that two steps you pass examination. I remeber that I on some examination after writing part go to prove my knowledge on blackboard front of my profesor and other 150 students. And sometimes I was spoke almost 2 hour and half.
That was very very hard.
But here, you have just writing test in most case with A B C... but there, I never had that A B C. There you have to write from you head what you learn.;-)

I can remeber in my second year of college that I had subject every day sometimes in saturday. In monday I had 4 hour with just pure physics + 2 our other subject. thusday and wensday I had astrophysical subject but every thursday I had 8 hour just mathematic. Can you belive me??? After those 8 hours you feel that you don`t know where are you. But when they teach you how to think and how to learn every day and continiously, with your effort, you can finish that colledge.
When I start that college with me was over 150 other people. On last year when I finished, with me finished just 16. And all of as have very good marks. I have 9.5 The best is 10.

But, here, I`m Zero, Here I just have my High school diploma and that is it. They don`t let me to take my degree her from my country because they want me there but there I can`t live because is... I speak to much.
Anyway I will start my education here again from zero. I trying to translate my Highschool diploma and try to find some online college just to prove my knowledge and take that paper that prove of education, after that I will try to reach Phd.

I`m sorry if I say something bad, and I`m sorry because my language is not very good.
I respect all of you and take my apologize if I say something wrogn.

negru

Yeah, what Proximo says is especially true for most east European countries. What strikes my most is that most US high schoolers take maybe 1 science course per year, and then say look I have 4 years of science (and if it's AP's woohoo I'm a genius). Well, that would mean that we here have 20 years of science, cause each year we take physics, chemistry, biology, computer science, geography and sometimes others also.
The problem is that all you can do here is study, you can't experiment, you can't do research, not even at college. Like, at was is considered the top university here, we still use equipment from 1800 for our physics experiments..

b@r!um

I agree we (only speaking for Germany) spend more time on sciences, but I found American high school courses (especially APs) to be more rigorous... E.g. we need 3 years of chemistry with 3 hours per week each year to cover the same material as is covered by AP chemistry. And we need 2 years of maths with 4 periods per week to cover AP Calc AB (btw, graphing calculators are still prohibited in both high school and college).

negru

True, with AP's the curriculum is very condensed, but they don't go in depth as much (simply because one year isn't enough to fully cover everything). Here in the 9th grade we do mechanics, then in 10th electricity and magnetism, then thermodynamics etc, so we do every theoretic proof, and also lots of olympiad level problems.
I read an example AP physics test, and it was a lot easier then the national baccalaureate on physics..not to mention the SAT physics exam..