fabrizio

So, it’s all right to punish Asians for having these advantages?

Old College Try

Fabrizio: When it comes to ECs, I don't think Asians are like everyone else. I know this is a generalization, and I apologize, but the Asians I know who serve as officers in clubs do so only as resume material. They don't care about the club's underlying purpose; they just want to be a leader of a club in hopes that it makes them a stronger candidate. I am not a member of any club because I can't find one that really interests me. I would have joined a debate club, but our school doesn't have one.

I wouldn't call the NHS elections this year a "democratic process." The exsting four officers were Asian (all four were accepted into Ivies or Stanford, by the way). These four got together and decided what four juniors would be the next officers. They then told the rest of the Asian members who they should vote for. Two or three Asians revolted and voted for other people, but the rest followed their orders. The Latina I told you about received only 4 votes even though her speech was very passionate. There were just too many Asians willing to two the line and vote for whom they were told to vote for. This may have qualified as "democratic" in the PRC, but it wasn't democratic as I understand the word.

fabrizio

I’m Chinese. It’s an individual thing, not a cultural thing. My father has plainly told me that he doesn’t care what race or ethnicity his future daughter-in-law is. My mother has told me that she prefers Chinese, but she’s never forbade me to develop a relationship with a black girl, a Hispanic girl, and so forth.

One of my Chinese friends had a steady white boyfriend. She told me that while her mother didn’t 100% approve of the relationship, her mother never said “you can’t see him!”

By contrast, one of my Indian friends has told me that his father explicitly told him, “Never date a black girl.” Is that Indian culture? I don’t think so. I think it’s just his father.

Old College Try

Fabrizio: You misunderstood me. I don't believe anyone should be punished for succeeding. That's counter-productive. (I also don't think it's "punishment" not to get accepted into the Ivies.) My point was that it wouldn't be fair to admit just those who happen to have be born into the best environments. People born into lesser environments should also have a chance to attend the Ivies. It's a balancing act, and there will always be some who are disappointed.

Old College Try

I get parental bias and all, but I am still trying to understand the "foreign devil" slam. It was a Chinese phrase. But I am not a foreigner and I don't think that I am a devil. I was really nice to her parents, so why did they refer to me as a devil? I don't get it. I could get if they call me "ugly" (I am not as good looking as k&s) or "stupid" or "goofy." I am all of the above, but "foreign devil"? I am lost.

fabrizio

OCT,

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you are implying that non-Asians join clubs because they are passionate whereas Asians join clubs because they think it will look good. I don’t think this is true at all. Supposedly, admissions officers can “sniff” out a fake a mile away. If what you say is true, then Asians wouldn’t be “overrepresented.” But, they are.

Did the officers rig the ballots (e.g. not allow everyone an equal chance to run)? Did they disenfranchise any of the members? Did they mandate a poll tax or require a literacy test?

If this isn’t democratic, then please, PLEASE tell me what is democratic.

fabrizio

Being born into a great environment is no guarantee of academic success.

As this source shows, on average, black students from families making more than $70,000 in 1995 dollars scored just 50 points higher than Asian students from families making less than $10,000.

Adjusting for inflation, $70,000 equates to $100,505.58 in 2008 dollars, and $10,000 equates to $14,357.94. (You can use the calculator at BLS.gov/CPI.) We’re talking about families that earn six digit incomes versus families who live in poverty. The former don’t have to worry about living from paycheck to paycheck, don’t have to worry about getting their electricity and water cut off, and don’t have to struggle just to survive. That’s not true for the latter. Despite these advantages, they can only get 50 more points on average?

Old College Try

Fabrizio: I would love to tell you everything, but I am too lazy. Here's what counts: Two of the NHS officers were like gods to the younger Asian kids. One is heading to Harvard, the other to Princeton. The younger Asian kids all wanted to be just like these two, and why not? They had accomplished everything.

The NHS elections were the first ones of the year. When the seniors told everyone else how to vote, virtually everyone listened. They voted for the candidates hand-picked by the current officers. When it came time for the speeches, those who didn't understand the system (like the Latina I reference) tried really hard. She made posters, flyers, etc. She also gave a great speech. But she got only 4 votes. Those who won didn't even give speeches, let along campaign. In this sense, it was rigged. No one other than those hand-picked by the seniors had a chance to win. The same thing happened in Key Club and FBLA. I don't consider this democracy, do you? It reminds me more of the elections that take place in North Korea, Iran and pre-war Iraq. Sure, the people voted, but they didn't really have the types of choices given in a true democracy.

fabrizio

It’s parental bias, not cultural bias. As I told you, my parents have never told me, “You can not date a non-Chinese girl!” I don’t think I am unique. In fact, I know I’m not unique because there exist many Chinese / non-Chinese couples.

Old College Try

I get that much, Fabrizio. But why the term "foreign devil"? What does that mean? Why not disapprove of me because I am a "purple frog" or a "slithering penguin" or a "one-legged aluminum can"? All of these phrases make as much sense to me as "foreign devil." I tried to ask my ex to explain, but she refused.

fabrizio

That's a term that only Hong Kong Chinese use. I don't feel I'm qualified to explain its use.

collegealum314

I went to a high school that was 40% Asian too and i never got the feeling that they conspired to elect Asians to club positions or that they were resume' padders. Yes, there was some resume' padding, but it was not any more common in Asians than among the non-Asians. Most people were conscious that if they did well at an EC it would help them in the application process, but I wouldn't characterize them as pushy or resume' padders. So I don't think it is fair to generalize your experience to an entire group of people.

Epiphany and others have asserted that there can be no bias using various arguments that are logically flawed. One of them was that she kept saying that a group cannot be discriminated against in a selection process if they are overrepresented at a school with respect to their percentage in the U.S. population. It's easy to imagine a case in which this would not be true. In fact, the discrimination of Jews in the early part of the 20th century is an infamous example of this. I believe this is why Jews were brought into the discussion, not because of some hatred for them. However, I concede that just because there are obvious counterexamples to these arguments it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a bias against Asians.

Some things do lead me to believe that there could be a bias against Asians, however. It's clear that AA helps URM's as a group at the expense of Asians; still I wouldn't characterize this exactly as a bias in the sense that they are viewed unfavorably. However, I found the comments by MIT Dean of Admissions Marilee Jones about how most Asians are "textureless math grinds" who all have exactly the same temperament to be pretty outrageous. If she had been spouting stereotypes about any other minority group, Jones would have been thrown out of office the next day. Yet there was barely any criticism of this comment. In fact, Jones was heralded as the leader of her field before it was discovered she had falsified her resume. Additionally, I believe an internal study at Harvard in the 80's showed that admissions officers responded to Asians and whites differently even if they had the same EC's; invariably Asians were viewed as timid studiers while whites were viewed as more well-rounded and as having more leadership potential. I can't say the same thing occurs today, but it was their conclusion that there was an anti-Asian bias at Harvard as recently as 20 years ago. So that's 2 out of the 5 top schools right there.

It also seems that there is a double standard in terms of the criticism of Asians versus other groups. In one case, lack of parental encouragement for academic success is used to justify boosting one group of people in the admissions process. However, when people claim that Asian parents don't encourage their kids to do EC's, the attitude is that this is their own fault and that they don't "get it." This is just one example.

unholy_ender

ok on the very first page of the common ap i already run into problems,
the optional section where you provide info about ethnicity and place of birth and stuff....
is it really optional? or do colleges use the optional to be politically correct and actually really demand it from you?
secondly, for the ethnic group bubbles, i am neither or them..
i am a Chinese born Canadian citizen. i dont have american green card so im not Asian American. it would look retarded if i put under others Asian Canadian
do i really want to provide them with my birth place?

thats just the first page who knows what comes next

Pro28

Uh.

Choose Asian, then in the dropdown, choose Canada.

In a somewhat related question, if I do have a green card, do I identify as Asian American or Asian?

laststopforme

^ I think since you are not yet an American citizen, you aren't an "Asian-American" per se.