calculus09

Of course "race-based AA" exists.
However, that doesn't mean that URMs will automatically get into any college nor that other qualified applicants will be rejected based ONLY upon the race of the other applicants.
The existence of "race-based AA" just means that ALL applicants will be given a FAIR chance in the college admissions decisions.

Now I know many of you still have the following questions:
1) Why are there more URMs in colleges each year?
2) Why do colleges need to know the races of the applicants?

Answers:
1) That just goes to show that many of the people who went to college in the past weren't very qualified. They got in only because they had the option of going to college, whereas URMs weren't allowed to.
2) This one's tough, but I'm sure this is the answer: Colleges want to better diversify their schools. Now I know this may contradict what I said earlier about colleges giving each applicant a fair chance, but suprisingly, it doesn't.
Elite colleges with students representing many races will attract promising URMs who, before, never even considered going to top colleges.

If a college is looking at two applicants (a URM and a non-URM) with extremely similar applications, the college is bound to accept the URM and reject the non-URM. Why? It's PAYBACK for what used to happen to the URM. This so-called PAYBACK is the only way to make college admissions fair to ALL races.

This doesn't mean that all non-URMs are going to be rejected from all the universities they apply to. It just means that only the TOP non-URMs will get accepted to elite universities. Like it or not, it's only FAIR to all races.

To all the non-URMs that are STILL complaining about AA:

STEP YOUR GAME UP!

galoisien

No, but if the point of AA is to look good -- then why would colleges implement AA at all?

FutureLawyer

This is an idiot question. Of course race is part of the criteria. You have to be a moron to not say so - every source possible proves it. Even the colleges themselves proudly boast "WE USE RACE AS AN ADMISSION FACTOR YIPEE KAI YAY!"

alex994

So what exactly have we Asians done to get this "payback?"

galoisien

FutureLawyer: For a future member of the bar you should know that correlation doesn't imply causation.


I don't quite agree -- there are some privileged URMs. However, what happens is that things get evaluated by a case by case basis, and if it comes down to a poor white and a rich URM, the socioeconomic status will matter way more than the race. Diversity often correlates with race, but take for example, a "white" (North African) kid who was raised in Morocco, become a PR in the US and is half-French and half-Berber, and comments on cultural issues and conflicts in his essays -- in short, he is highly culturally aware. When it comes down to the same SAT scores and GPA, he's going to look better than the less culturally-diverse applicants, even better than privileged URM's.

I'm Asian too ... but if it's case by case admissions the process is justifiable. And I cannot envision a situation where if it *IS* case-by-case evaluation (since anything else has been outlawed) that an AdCom will pay more attention to race than to other more concrete evidence of being disadvantaged.

collegealum314

"Even the colleges themselves proudly boast 'WE USE RACE AS AN ADMISSION FACTOR YIPEE KAI YAY!'"

I didn't know John McClain worked in admissions!

collegealum314

"However, what happens is that things get evaluated by a case by case basis, and if it comes down to a poor white and a rich URM, the socioeconomic status will matter way more than the race."

You don't know that. I'm pretty sure being a minority was more of a boost than having a low family income for University of Michigan, for instance.

galoisien

If it's with a case by case basis, can you envision an AdCom that will evaluate on the primary criteria of race?

After all, what was the intention of giving points based by race? A crude system, but one intended to compensate for the hardships endured *on average* by members of that URM. Forcing AdComs to evaluate case by case removes that inaccuracy.

Speaking as an Asian for example, I know that many Asian families have more conducive home environments, and more privilege on average.

esmitty01

extremely rich black kid at my school got in to U chicago. 3,4ish gpa, and under 2000 SAT. middle class white kid got denied with 4.1 and >2200 SAT.
Both had pretty decent ec's
That says it all

galoisien

But you missed out the essay and other potentially important parts of the application .... especially significant, since UChicago considers the essay "very important".

Witness my white friend in Maine, the whitest state there could ever be, rank 30/220+, GPA around 3.5 and also an under 2000 SAT also get into UChicago. The only reason why he declined was because ASU offered him a full-ride, which he felt compelled to take (he was a pre-med student, and as you know, med students are expected to take out a huge amount of loans later on, so a full-ride was extremely helpful).

But why did he get in? I don't know what the deciding factor was, but he was extremely gregarious and full of humility, and this reflected in his essays; he was highly culturally aware; he had self-studied four different languages and was fluent in all of them; he was extremely passionate about Portuguese culture and Brazil, and each year he had gone to volunteer in helping the village schools there -- on his own shoestring out-of-pocket budget. [He was an especial expert in bargain travel.]

There's the other thing you know -- fit?

I could say this is the ultimate proof that cultural awareness & diversity > race, but unlike the poster in #22, I won't be as arrogant.

imaparasite

What's good for large-scale society is not always good for each individual or group of individuals. AA fits into this idea.

Blacks and Hispanics are put up against extreme statistical odds from day one until graduation day, or lack thereof. To give them an advantage in college admissions is to acknowledge the fact that, *at this point in time, not based on any oppressive past*, they are doing relatively poorly as an ethnic group.

And why do we split USAns into ethnic groups? Because historically, ethnicities immigrated here together. Yes, over time some migration groups have blended together to form one ethnicity, but the point is: all of us arrived at different times.

To make sure one group isn't given an advantage over another based on how rocky their journey to the US was (or how good they had it once they got here), we use programs like AA and Equal Opportunity.

AA can and will eventually close the gap between the number of high-income people of certain ethnic groups (ie Asian, white) and of other ethnic groups (ie black, Hispanic, First Nations). It's not that AA wants x number of students of a certain color just for the sake of having x number of students of a certain color, it's that TIMING/SITUATION OF IMMIGRATION among ethnic groups can be a deciding factor in how successful each individual within the group will be. AA intervenes in this vicious cycle and attempts to give some of those 'products of unlucky immigration' a better shot at success as we define it.

Keshira

To the specific URM? Or are we doing the "reward because your great-great-great-grandmother was a slave" thing again? It is DEFINITELY not a system of social retribution, because trust me if it were Asians would not be getting treated the worst of all races. Saying that it is made to "give all races a fair chance" is, once again, hiding behind a euphemism.

Isolating race and race alone, without correlating factors such as income/first gen/poorly funded schools, shows that skin color is not a factor of advantage or disadvantage in college admissions. Pretending it does to up the black and Hispanic numbers is silly.

If we want to get more disadvantaged people into college, great. We can focus on income; we can focus on first generation students; we can focus on students who have had few educational opportunities. I know these are already taken into consideration, but they are second to the irrelevant factor of race.

This isn't a true meritocracy when certain races are favored over others. That's racism, and it's racism even if traditionally disadvantaged races are favored. If we want more African Americans to have higher education, we can try to bring education into their culture, we can make inner city schools better, we can help low income students to achieve enough so that they deserve to get in, rather than piggybacking on an unequal system.

It's like saying let's add .5 to the GPA of all African American students, .3 to Hispanic students, and take .2 off for Asian students. This will make the system more fair for everyone. Suuure...

galoisien

EDIT: never mind, I misread the post, I totally agree actually

BIGTWIX

galoisien...sure U Chicago is a top school (one of the best in the world without a doubt), but chicago admissions are way different than any Ivy league schools and such. I have heard of multitudes of admits getting in with those low of stats for chicago, as Chicago, more than any other top school in the US, is SUPER into you!

Your writing sample (essay) is generally considered the most important part of your application, and it will easily make up for a lacking SAT and will also make up for a slightly lacking GPA. Chicago caters to a very specific type of student and you could have the stats to get in and be rejected if you do not appear to be the "U of Chicago kid".
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As for race being a factor in admission, I don't think that you can't necessarily prove that it is a factor. However, when Harvard explicitly says race is considered, you should give them the benefit of the doubt that they do.

Private schools are the only ones that can legally do it i believe tho, as Bakke vs. UC regents only applies to public schools if I recall.

The level of consideration for admission that is given to URMs can vary much between universities or colleges, and it is often a deciding factor (and VERY important one at that).

University admission is all a bragging game. We have "10% african-american students. So come to our school! We are race friendly". Every private school wants to say that. Gives them a better name.

galoisien

Yes -- but then why have closed-door admissions?