galoisien

*sigh*

The point of open immigration isn't to relieve suffering -- it's to uphold the basic principles of a just social contract as outlined by Locke and Rousseau.
Social contract -- you know, that basic founding principle of the country and the central theme of the Declaration of Independence.

Again, what's the point of education or (sound) welfare? It's not to relieve suffering -- it's to make an economic return. The beneficiary of the return (greater society) will not change whether you invest in an undocumented migrant or invest in a child born in a poor American household. It just so happens that those same economic returns create the ability to relieve suffering, create happiness, in the process.

You keep on asserting this as axiom even though it has been challenged.

"Do whatever they please with no legal indoctrination ...."

Please, take your xenophobia somewhere else if you're not at least going to pay attention to arguments about the nature of law.

It's not "showing up by hook or crook ..." -- it's the principle of a just social contract, which can be elaborated upon as I have done numerous times throughout this thread.

"Populations it cannot support"....?

AGAIN, let's take a look at the merit of your argument. If the birth rate of non-immigrant American couples were to increase to a comparable amount (let's say, 3% of the population decides to have an extra baby), would you complain and ask for the government to impose mandatory family planning controls?

The basic problem is that it puts a strain on capital resources, but with sufficient time the returns will be even greater. That's the point of government intervention (which is not the best measure by libertarian standards but in terms of economics, their effects can be analysed as such.

You see education as a donation ....

But the point of education and public goods is to correct for spillover benefits. You know, because the members who receive them eventually give back as well ... (lowering the marginal costs for skilled labour, increasing marginal product of labour, etc.)

Economically, how does national origin matter? They are *members* of that economy. They *contribute* to that economy. De facto, they have become part of the fabric of the contract, as it would be in any just social contract.

From an economic and a common sense POV, the undocumented students that are ready for college are economic assets to the country, not economic liabilities. Please tell me how they are creating rampant disorder.

Tell me, what constitutes valid membership in the social contract? An individual's interactions and relationships with other members of the contract, or a piece of paper? Order creates what is reflected on the paper, not the other way round.

zoosermom

"Z, can you explain how illegals are avoiding paying property taxes when they pay rent to their landlords?"

If the landlord pays the property taxes, then some of the rent is paid in property taxes, however, when you have a large number of young men (like the house next door to me), paying small amounts of money, the tax paid is negligible. You're just full of nonsense, Vossrun. I choose to assist individual illegal immigrants because I'm a pragmatist and want to make the best of the situation, but you could at least be honest about the hardships imposed by some illegal immigrants. Your arguments can not be taken seriously.

" Are you saying that legals and illegals who don't make enough to pay federal income tax must pay state and local income taxes? Perhaps that is unique to your area."

What I was saying was that you were squawking about the IRS and I was pointing out that the IRS is not the only taxing agency.

zoosermom

"These are kids who were brought to the US illegally (or brought legally but overstayed) when they were little, grew up here, went to school here, and are now finding out they cannot qualify for federally funded student assistance, driver's licenses, social security numbers, passports, etc"

You don't know that. How dare you presume to speak of an entire group of people? Not every illegal who wants to go to college came as a small child. I tutor many who came here in their late teens because there is an entire network engaged in sucking the US dry.

zoosermom

He is speaking the truth though. Out of 7 of my private school applications, 4 of them called me one day and told me that they cannot accept my application due to my status here in the U.S. I did not lie on my applications."

You are in illegal status. You are not a legal resident or a citizen and, therefore, are not deserving of the benefits of legality. I ask you what does your country owe you and what do you owe to the US?

collegealum314

Do other countries have an open immigration policy?

Bay

At least you are more fortunate than the children of wealthy parents who won't or can't pay for their education. Those students don't qualify for financial aid either, so they will not get to go to BC. At least they can legally get a job at McDonalds, though.

zoosermom

"Do other countries have an open immigration policy?"

I don't know about every country in the world, but I can tell you that Mexico is ruthless in enforcing its borders that don't connect with the US.

Bay

Fivekey,

Thank you for sharing your experience, it is very interesting. I have question for you: Why did your parents come here, when it puts you in a terrible situation? I understand why poverty-stricken people from Mexico might feel the need to migrate out of dire necessity. But your father is apparently very financially well-off if he can easily pay for your $50K/year tuition. If you are willing to share, what does he say about his motivation for coming here, and your post-graduation prospects?

FLVADAD

Nope, not buying it galo, sorry. Choose any vantage point you like, but I'm not going down the "what if" or theoretical paths of libertarianism or the paradigms of economic theory with you. There is no principle or theory in this given context upon which civil disorder is appropriate or beneficial, nor can you prove that it is despite your repeated assertions. Although predicated on some fine ideas, you are substituting optimism, wishful thinking, theories, and assumptions about future outcomes for present realities. In other words, you are somewhat of a dreamer. That's not a criticism, I think it's great actually. It just doesn't make for a valid argument for the disposing of basic laws and social order.

What if tens of thousands of students decided to attend college the same way? What if they all just said, "Who cares about admissions? I'll just show up at Harvard, drop into whatever classes I want." They could sleep in the hallways or wherever, or just pile into the rooms of a couple of acquaintances who actually went through the trouble of being admitted, but are nonetheless sympathetic. After all, an admissions letter is just a piece of paper, it's not substantive or anything meaningful, right? All that would matter is how they interact with the other students and administators, right? Yeah, good luck with that my friend - dream on.

flamingspirits00

i have not read 11 pages of responses, but to answer the main question.

Yes i think they should have a chance. I know of a few cases similar to the few responses i have read. First of all undoc. families DO pay taxes, and believe it or not some do have social security numbers, most likely because of overstayed visas. Others i think get "dummy" numbers to file IRS taxes. When taking a college physics class in my highschool, my teacher asked students who did not have socials to see him later because he would provide "dummy" numbers, so i assume its similar.

Also, i bet a lot of them are very bright and intellengent but cannot do anything because of there status. Immigration reform was something not in the mind of the last presidency and if it was, nothing effective. I think granting these undocumented aliens some type of amnesty is inevitable because it is not realistic to me, for the US to send all these possibly millions of people back to their country, but the ways to going about that is a completey different story. Its pretty sad when you know people who have possibly been living here longer than some of us (who were not born here ofcourse), and they do not have good status.

zoosermom

"First of all undoc. families DO pay taxes, and believe it or not some do have "

Some, but by no means all.

"Immigration reform was something not in the mind of the last presidency and if it was, nothing effective. "

Little uninformed there, aren't you?

"Its pretty sad when you know people who have possibly been living here longer than some of us (who were not born here ofcourse), and they do not have good status."

Decisions have consequences.

flamingspirits00

So inform me of what i am uninformed about, and explain to me how it was so effective.

"Decisions have consequences."

I agree, I am not saying they have no fault. I'm saying there should be some type of reform, not just send everyone back. Certain circumstances need more attention then others but obviously if they are here undocumented and are committing crimes and are threats, thats a different case. But if they are doing anything wrong, getting education, working hard, paying taxes...what justification is there (besides the way they came here) for them to not be given a chance?

zoosermom

"So inform me of what i am uninformed about, and explain to me how it was so effective."

Immigration was a huge priority for President Bush, which put him at odds with his base in a very big way. You should definitely do some research on that because you're factually incorrect in saying that immigration reform wasn't a priority for this administration.

"But if they are doing anything wrong, getting education, working hard, paying taxes...what justification is there (besides the way they came here) for them to not be given a chance?"

Unfortunately, finding out who is whom is almost impossible. If we could find those illegals who aren't committing other crimes, are hardworking, assimilable, and literate, I'd all for it, but we can't, and the need to protect American citizens is too great to ignore the problem. I support enforcement and attrition.

flamingspirits00

"If we could find those illegals who aren't committing other crimes, are hardworking, assimilable, and literate, I'd all for it, but we can't"

You might not be able to find all of them but you can some of them. and if those are the ones that are eligible for a right path then imo thats fine, especially the ones with social security, how can it be that somewhere there are not records of them, especially if they are paying federal taxes and there children are going to school and going on to colleges that allow them to attend?

I still believe there should be some way, if there is any way.

zoosermom

"You might not be able to find all of them but you can some of them"

You might be surprised. As I said, I've worked with them for decades. Honored to do so in most cases, but even the most hardworking are trying to get over, to take as much as they can out of the US. Many don't even want to stay here, they want to take what they can get and send it back. I've become really cynical because so many have been indoctrinated by groups that hate "the man" and think their clients are entitled to any and everything, without regard to the fact that it's real human beings who pay for the things they take.