momofthreeboys

Galoisien "That lack of ability to secure documentation (simply because the government doesn't have a financial incentive" ) Do you mind explaining your statement here. Why do these immigrants have a "lack of ability to secure documentation". Given our country's propensity to legislate just about everything I imagine there is a process for obtaining documentation so why is this an excuse? I agree with most everyone here, if a person is living in this country and wants to benefit from access to services that are in any small way paid by the citizens, then they have an obligation to do the same in return. It has absolutely nothing with being a libertarian. Immigration has NEVER been easy in this country, but previous waves of immigrants have managed to navigate the path. If you don't believe that the European immigrants weren't "scrutinized" on Ellis Island before they were admitted, then you should read up on it. If you don't think they overcame language barriers and discrimination you talking out of the side of your mouth. It didn't matter whether you were educated in European colleges or peasants who came in steerage..they were all scrutinized. Why should this wave of immigrants feel more entitled than the last? And why should a first generation of immigrant child of college age continue to be "undocumented" or feel entitled in any way....I can't buy the argument no matter which direction I look at it.

oldfort

If US didn't offer som many benefits to illegal immigrants, there would be less reason for them to risk their life to come to this country. As a young mother living in NYC many years ago, I knew many illegal sitters that had free medical care, their babies received regular well baby care, free diapers and formulas. As a tax payer I was not eligible to any of those benefits. They told me it was worth their while to risk their life so their kids could have a better life. I laughted when one of them told me that she was upset to have to see a different doctors every time she went to the free clinic. She felt she had the right to have a dedicated doctor. i had to remind her that she was not paying for the service.

If our system is inefficient in admitting immigrants, that's what we should try to change. By offering free education and other benefits to illegal immigrants we are encouraging many of them to risk their life to come to this country. We have a large underground economy that is supported by illegal immigrants. Whatever benefit they are providing to certain group of people is being subsidized by most of us.

zoosermom

"Nothing. They never grew up there (except in the earliest years of birth). They never participated in society there. "

You don't know that. It wasn't part of the information provided in my question.

"The fact is, if one of them came here and ingratiated themselves among CC, or one of them were your best friends, you would think differently, because YOU would think of them as American all but in document."

Didn't anyone teach you about assuming? Some illegal immigrants ARE among my best friends. I've worked closely among them for decades. I would venture to guess that I have a lot more firsthand knowledge than you do.

Zamzam

"Civil disobedience" is sitting in jail because you refused to pay taxes that you believe are not going to just causes, or getting firehosed while participating in a nonviolent protest march. Being paid or using the resources provided (either directly or indirectly) by U.S. citizens for U.S. citizens is not civil disobedience, because you are not doing to face the consequences, but you are instead doing it despite the consequences. That is not taking a stand against the government; it is just breaking the law. That's like saying smoking pot while hidden in your own home is civil disobedience, which is absurd.

zoosermom

"If US didn't offer som many benefits to illegal immigrants, there would be less reason for them to risk their life to come to this country

Risk and sometimes lose their lives. Often lose their families. I was stunned to learn how many illegal immigrants would very, very much prefer to be able to make a living in their home countries than to come here. Which is the reason for my question about what their nations owe them and their parents. Which is, I think, a lot. I'm also not in favor of ethnic cleansing.

galoisien

A law, or The Law? A product of an unlibertarian process that should be reformed, or the paradigm and set of social principles each individual agrees to live by. As far as society is concerned, immigration laws concern how to get Here. The Law which governs the social contract outline each individual's obligations once one is already in society.

You had the advantage of being American.

I had the advantage of my father being in an existing American MNC.

A large portion, if not the majority, will never get their visas due to current *restrictions* on immigration.

Travel visas are different -- many get them with the intention of overstaying. And I sympathise with them -- if Libertarianism were to be implemented this problem would not be occurring, because the documentation process would be sped up, with most restrictions lifted, and so on.

If we enacted a libertarian framework to government, these inefficiencies in immigration would not exist, especially since the philosophy to immigration would be totally different.

In the meantime, one could simply practice civil disobedience. The NC authorities were fine before. Why change it?

Huh? My single mother lived on welfare and child support for a while ... she paid no income taxes until 2007.

I bet I'm less American and should be deported, amirite?

It also happens that state colleges get funded by sales tax (which all people pay, regardless of status) and state tax, which AFAIK is often payable even if federal taxes are not.

Taxes are a small issue. Again, we can easily make up for the spillover cost by imposing a corrective cost on the education somewhere else.

The long-term solution is to have open (but documented) immigration. Most of these cases would disappear.

galoisien

Again, from an economics point of view, taxes represent a small portion of their overall contribution to the social contract!

As an internationalist, I don't respect formal nationality very much beyond the superficial. Common sense dictates that one is the citizen of the society one has consented to live in, in respect to the principles of the social contract. By the virtues of the social contract, restrictions on immigration should be minimal.

Only xenophobia and a lack of libertarian common sense is preventing the United States from adopting an open immigration system. The process should be as simple as getting a driver's licence. A RealID card, if you want to go there.

Yes, the social contract.

Firstly, I have been pointing out time and time again that the contribution of each undocumented individual to the contract is far more than what they owe in taxes.

Again, while we wait for US immigration reform, the authorities in NC, if they so wished, could have imposed a (income-dependent) corrective cost if they felt it was necessary (or some other even more libertarian means, since manual market correction is not our style). Rather painless.

Women considering careers often don't have it easy. They were discriminated in the 1950s, the 1900s, the 1850s, the 1500s ... BY GOLLY, LET US APPEAL TO TRADITION AND CONTINUE THE DISCRIMINATION!

The fact is, anyone who does not support open immigration is simply subscribing to protectionism and xenophobia -- both of which are economically unsound concepts. That is fundamental to why libertarians support open immigration.

zoosermom

"single mother lived on welfare and child support for a while "

And where in the name of heaven is your gratitude for the taxpayers who supported you, educated you and are helping you to go to one of the top universities in the world?


"The long-term solution is to have open (but documented) immigration. Most of these cases would disappear."

more people on the public dole. A large percentage of the immigrants coming to America illegally are illiterate and don't ever contribute in any meaningful financial manner, and assimilation rates are declining markedly. Not a good thing for a nation, but you wouldn't care about that because this country that has been so kind to you hasn't earned your loyalty or gratitude.

zoosermom

"As an internationalist"

You're not an internationalist, you're not a libertarian, you're a kid. And a moocher. I hope you save these threads or come back to them years hence because the adult you become will be mortified. Thank heavens for anonymity.

oldfort

I am so glad I am not a professor to have to read endless papers like this, or is this just a special case, if not, they really should get paid more.

Johnson181

Guess what: this isn't a libertarian government.


If you really have a problem with the way things are run here, either go somewhere else or do something to change it.

There are reasons why there is a limit on immigration (yes, xenophobia being an issue I think we really need to work on). The U.S. really doesn't need to be allowing a huge host of immigrants in who are just going to go on welfare and not contribute.

galoisien

I dunno, maybe it was that 500,000 dollar house the Court confiscated when our "father" decided to leech away our family's funds with legal fees by contesting my mother's custody?

That's what you think.

I have a love-hate relationship with this country, and for good reason. I am not blind to the benefits that have been afforded me. But I am not blind to the benefits that have not been afforded to my fellow brothers. And so why should I be content? Why should I remain obedient and dumb to a problem that merits more attention? On the contrary, my experiences with the system only make me more resolved to change it.

You think I am ingrateful. But I would gladly defend the country. I'd give my life for it, even though I've been on roller coaster terms with it. And that is love isn't it?

Better my love be like Cordelia's -- honest and frank -- than Goneril and Regan's false flattery.

A left libertarianism would provide a more systemic and better means of self-actualisation than straight handouts.

That's not what economics says.

So many people -- many of them surprisingly being educated -- subscribe to the fallacy that immigrants are somehow "stealing jobs" or leeching away from the economy, but those arguments don't make any economic sense.

I'm not anonymous.

I have readily echoed these points before.

There were more efficient (left libertarian) means of social aid that I would have taken -- but alas, the State didn't offer them. So my family took what was offered. We couldn't be choosy. This is not already counting the nice donation of our house that we gave to society because of the injustices in the way the court handled my parents' divorce.

momofthreeboys

Zoosermom....He/she just likes to run his mounth and listen to himself talk about something he doesn't know and doesn't understand... not even contextually.

galoisien

Maybe I'm being too abrasive -- but this is my frank opinion. After cultural alienation thrice experienced, perhaps I have too many bitter memories to expound rationally without "running my mouth off" as you say, and maybe I should take a break so my heart should stop pounding, and maybe it's true that I don't really understand?

But from a rights/contractual framework of society, denying those students admissions doesn't make sense, and neither does not having open immigration. (The sole law they're breaking is a law that is related to a process needing much overhaul.)

From an economics point of view it doesn't make sense either. These students are on the way to college -- they are *ready* to contribute back to society -- if only society would let them!

I really don't get this "ingrate" argument. If I were a born citizen making the same argument, would you be as critical? I'm going to a great school ... yes I'm elated, but at this moment I'm not there. Nothing has changed the quality of my life since I sent in that application. Wow, I feel like I'm climbing in society already. I look at fellow immigrant schoolmates who are in more serious documentation issues and think, "Wow! How lucky I am! I should shut up!"

Zamzam

That whole "house" problem sounds like your parents' fault. It's not the state's problem that your parents can't solve a problem without lawyers they couldn't afford.

Edit:

I said all *required* taxes. Income tax is not *required* on specific types of income (welfare and child support among them), but undocumented workers who are getting paid under-the-table of an amount that would legally require income tax are breaking the law.