suze

Wow semiserious, I remember your other posts so I do understand where you're personally coming from. You rail against a lot of things, like low scores keeping people out of top schools.

Perhaps you heven't had the benefit of first hand seeing what the effort toward diversity at schools results in. I have. I've seen lives changed when an opportunity was needed and gotten. I've gone to a high school with AA, where I've seen people come in from poor city public schools with no opportunities and emerge stars at one of the Country's top schools. I've seen how their inclusion effects the outlook of many of this Country's future leaders who may have ended up not seeing anything outside of a wealthy whitebread suburb.

So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you probably haven't seen this first hand. So semi, if scores do keep you out of a top college, wouldn't you rather go out into a world where people have been exposed to diversity and don't believe the world should just be run by wealthy whites who went to HYP?

CCAddict

It's funny, because haven't throughout the years blacks, hispanics, etc, WANTED to be treated the same as a white person? Doesn't the whole "URM" hook thing go against this? They now get treated more favorably because they're black? I think that a poor white student who's maintained the stats of a rich black student should be admitted... That's just my opinion, however.

drummerdude_07

Ok suze, are you contending that there is not a level playing field today? Because there would be, were it not for AA. Look, back when AA was first instituted, there might not have been a level playing field, but if a field has a slope to it, do you fix it by going to another part of the field and adding another slope? Personally, fighting racism with racism wasn't the brightest idea.

Oedipus

Second generation blacks such as those from Latin America or the West Indies did indeed have enslaved ancestors. How do you think their families got to those locations in the first place? Assuming that blacks automatically have an advantage in the admission process is absolutely wrong. During the admission process at elite schools, URM's, which include anyone that differs from the majority of the student body racially, ethnically, socially, economically, and geographically, are shown special consideration, nothing more.
One thing that semiserious and drummerdude have failed to point out is that whites in this country have long benefited from similar AA action policies. For example the GI Bill which enabled millions of Americans to get college educations and become home owners, was for WHITES ONLY.

semiserious

All I said ever said about scores is that they should be tempered with the other aspects of an applicant's personality. A boring @$$hole with a 2400 shouldn't get in above a charming, kind kid with a 2100. That's my opinion, I realize HYPS may disagree.

I don't remember saying anything about minorities not excelling once they were admitted. I don't remember ever doubting the ablities of minorities who gain admission to top colleges. In fact, I know without a doubt that I could handle a Harvard workload--IF I could get admitted, which unfortunately with my scores I cannot. Why are you even directing this at me? Achievement has nothing to do with "diversity". Diversity, apparently, just means lots of kids who LOOK different.

Are you trying to argue that minorites DON'T have an easier time getting into top schools? Because that is the only thing I'm trying to assert.

I also like how everyone assumes I am white. I am half-latina.

Oedipus

Most minorties have to deal with discrimination, racism, and social disapproval both from inside and outside their communities on a daily basis. In no way do they have an "easier" time getting into top schools.

glucose101

I'm half white....your point?

drummerdude_07

Ok Suze, I get see where you are coming from on the personalyl seeing the results, etc. But I'd like to bring up a point made by Dinesh D'Souza in one of his books. it goes osmething liek this: It's great that you have taken the advantage given to you and capitalized on it. We wouldn't expect anything less. But you know what, you got a favor to get into prep school, now that you feel you are level with those around you, can you deal with the fact that you are going to be given a favor to get into Yale, your going to get a favor when applying for a job, and you are going to be given a favor when you get a raise or a promotion. You will never know what would or could have happened without those 'favors'. You really won't ever know how you measure up as a person, because everyone can rightly say that you got where you did because of favors. It's not your fault you recieved them, it was unpreventable, and you will never, ever know how you stacked up against the full field.

"wouldn't you rather go out into a world where people have been exposed to diversity and don't believe the world should just be run by wealthy whites who went to HYP?"

What is it with you and making things up? No one ever said the world should be run by wealthy whites who went to HYP. You see, more people would be inclined to support AA if it only hurt wealthy people at HYP. But actually, it effects poor whites, wealthy whites, poor Asians, wealthy Asians, and every other demographic except URMs. The only type of diversity that holds any worth is diversity of ideas, and the top college profs and administrations are vehemently opposed to that idea, because as suze says about me, people who don't conform are stupid and/or racist.

filmxoxo17

semi, I think she might have been implying that while you argue that SAT scores should be looked at zith a wholistic view -- with personal motvations Im sure -- you still disregard URMs with otherwise stellar applications other than below average (for an ivy) SAT scores. (sorry if the letters are mixed up, Im in a foreign country right now damn weird keyboards!)

Oedipus

Prehaps you can't read well drummerdude, but as I stated before, AN URM IS ANYONE THAT DIFFERS FROM THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENT BODY RACIALLY, ECONONMICALLY, ETHINICALLY, SOCIALLY, AND/OR GEROGRAPHICALLY.

drummerdude_07

"Diversity, apparently, just means lots of kids who LOOK different."

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Most minorties have to deal with discrimination, racism, and social disapproval both from inside and outside their communities on a daily basis. In no way do they have an "easier" time getting into top schools."

Don't even give me that. Society, in a huge majority, despises people who are racist. No one pays attention. As a result, those who are openly racist are few and far between, and when they rear their ugly heads, they are taken down in flames. Minorities in America no longer have to deal with racism anymore than they have to deal with the slavery. O, and I've already demonstrated about 7 times most of the ways that they have an easier time getting into colleges. You could at least defend it rather than deny it is happening.

drummerdude_07

"Prehaps you can't read well drummerdude, but as I stated before, AN URM IS ANYONE THAT DIFFERS FROM THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENT BODY RACIALLY, ECONONMICALLY, ETHINICALLY, SOCIALLY, AND/OR GEROGRAPHICALLY."

Well I'm very sorry oedipus, because there is some discrimination against some of those groups. But URM, as colleges treat the term, only applies to race (which is very wrong, but hey, they do set the standard by which the rest of us use the term). i apologize.

But ooooooooo yes, in many, many ways which I and others have stated, pretty much all those groups get into colleges easier. The economically different is debatable, but then technically under that standard developmental cases are URMs. Socially different, not so much, but I don't really know what you mean by that.

semiserious

No. I'm not disregarding minorities with lower than average SAT scores. I said that if you have a white and minority with exactly equal stats from the same school with the same wealth, the minority will get in every time.

How can anyone possibly be arguing that it's not easier for minorities to get into top schools? That is the entire idea behind AA!

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/47_bl..._colleges.html

BTW, drummerdude, I agreed with you up until this point. Minorities don't face anywhere NEAR the kind of discrimination they faced 50 or 100 years ago. But as a latina, I do face SOME discrimination in my daily life--it is very minimal and I don't think it means colleges should "go easy on me". People are usually surprised to discover that I am well-off and well-educated and planning to attend a good university. I don't blame them--it's simply a fact that that is uncommon among latino and hispanic communities. Most of my friends are white because I live in an overwhelming white community and I have never faced any sort of racism from them or their parents. I am only half-latina though and I only live with my white mother, so some people are not even aware that I am Cuban.

sybbie719

It's apparent that you haven't strayed far from Sterling. Il and the great panecea that you are apparently living in. Just because you have never experienced racism, don't stick your head in the ground and make a blanket statement that racism does not exist.

glucose101

" I've already demonstrated about 7 times most of the ways that they have an easier time getting into colleges. "

And all 7 had no impact...