thisSHHHisBANANAs

What are the average SAT1 and SAT11 scores of URMs at the Ivies/top 25 schools? Specifically Yale, UPenn, Cornell, and NYU.

suze

I've never seen the scores published, but a 1400 combined cr and math would make you competitive at all ivies. A 1300 is a possibility, especially at lower ivies.

bingowasmynamo

1300 - 1400 is generally the mean.

sleepibabi33

what's an urm??

ampersand

urm= under-represented minority

SpookyAlien

This might be a dumb question, but I'm seriously wondering. Is a URM with a significantly higher verbal score (in comparison to math) more/less "competitive" at these (and similar) schools? Especially if English is a second language. Ok yea, we're getting awfully specific

Just wonderin'

dufus3709

I would love to know what a URM needs to have on their SAT's. A non-URM probably need to be at the 75% mark on the 50% SAT range for the school to be a match, and at the 50% mark for the school to be a reach. In addition, for the top 10-15 schools, people with the necessary scores stack up because they just don't have enough open slots.

URM's with very high scores are courted like star athletes, and URM's with scores in the 1300's are accepted. I think it is harder for them to pick safeties and matches because of the uncertainty.

PavelB

Do internationals count as URM's?

Northstarmom

Ivies are not a match for anyone except perhaps billionaire donors' kids who have 1500 scores on the new SAT.

Do not kid yourself about the tip factors for URMs. I know a URM with a 1520 who was waitlisted by Harvard. I know another very rare type of URM who was rejected by Harvard who had on the old SAT a 750 m, and a verbal score high enough enough for his overall score to be above 1400.

It is not hard for URMs to pick safeties. A safety still is a school in which one's scores are in the top 25th percentile or so of incoming freshmen -- whether or not one is a URM. Another example of a safety would be a state university that bases admissions on stats (as is the case with many public universities). If one's stats are in the mid range, and one applies early (particularly important for the many public universities that are rolliing admission), it probably would work as a safety.

S's SAT, v, m is above 1500, and he'll probably pick for safeties either an in state public where his stats are probably top 15% or an out of state private where the average SATs are around 1100-1000. No way would he be silly enough to assume that an Ivy is a match for him even though there are probably fewer than 100 black students in the US with SATs as high as his.

When it comes to Harvard, usually the lowest scores that anyone (URM or not) gets in with was a 1200 on the old SAT. I have heard of white star athletes as well as URMs from disadvantaged backgrounds who got in with such low scores for Ivies. No matter how poor they are or how talented or rich, not a lot of students of any race, though, get in with such scores.

dufus3709

northstarmom:

You seem to be saying that URM's do not have any advantage at all and that they pick safeties/matches/reaches at exactly the same levels as non-URM applicants. Statistics for URM's are not readily available, but if URM's don't have an advantage, I think there are some special interest political groups who are going to be upset.

You do seem to think that if you have enough money, then a 1500/2400 (or 1000/1600) will get you in. I've read contrary information to that.

In reference to a star (white) athlete getting into Harvard with a 1200, I would think that it would violate the ivies' ban on athletic recruitments. Isn't that what the AI is for?

CCAddict

I've read many of NorthStarMom's posts, and usually I agree with them. I don't think she explained herself very well in this one. When she said "Ivies are not a match for anyone except perhaps billionaire donors' kids who have 1500 scores on the new SAT. " I think, and hope, she meant on the old SAT. And, she said a donation of a billion dollars because it's unrealistic. She thinks, from reading her previous posts, that being a URM is a boost, but not enough to make it a match.

Northstarmom

No, I know that being a URM can be an advantage, but it's not the automatic extraordinary advantage that many people posting on CC assume. This includes some high scoring URMs who may not put much effort into applications or interviews and then be surprised when they get rejected from some top colleges.

I don't know what AI is, so I don't understand your statement. I do know, however, that usually the very bottom SAT score for Harvard admits was a 1200 on the old SAT. That's because in general, that's the lowest score in adcoms' opinions that indicates that a student has the ability to graduate from Harvard.

Very few students are accepted with that score, and the numbers accepted with scores below that are minuscule. Havard's overall graduation rate is one of the tops in the country -- typically around 96-98% for all students, and around 95% for black students.

As for the money issue, it is hard for me to believe that a billionaire donor's kid would be turned down if the kid had the very bare minimum indicating that s/he could graduate from Harvard. Of course, adcoms and such students aren't going to announce that they had low scores and were accepted because of Daddy's bucks.

Here's a relevant article that I posted on the Parents' Forum:
From a 2003 Wall Street Journal article: "For Groton Grads, Academics
Aren't Only Keys to Ivy Schools
A Look at Who Got in Where Shows
Preferences Go Beyond Racial Ones" http://online.wsj.com/public/resour...roton_Grads.htm

"One striking anomaly: Of nine Groton students listed as applicants to Stanford that year, Margaret Bass was the only one admitted. Ms. Bass's grades placed her 40th in her Groton class, according to the Groton document. She had an SAT score of 1220, lower than those of seven of the eight other Stanford applicants. By contrast, almost 90% of Stanford freshmen rank in the top 10% of their high school class, while 75% have SAT scores of 1360 or better.

But Ms. Bass had an edge: Her father, Texas tycoon Robert Bass, was chairman of Stanford's board and had given $25 million to the university in 1992. Mr. Bass has a degree from the Stanford Graduate School of Business. He and his wife, Anne, are both Groton trustees....

Selective universities justify favoring children of alumni and prospective donors on the grounds that tuition doesn't cover the entire cost of education. These schools say private gifts subsidize scholarships, faculty salaries and other needs. Children of celebrities, they add, enhance an institution's visibility. "I will certainly factor in a history of very significant giving to Stanford," said Robin Mamlet, admissions dean. She added that the university's development office each year provides her with names of applicants whose parents have been major donors."

dufus3709

northstarmom:

I basically disagree with you.

The AI stands for Academic Index. The ivies started out as a sports league and they agreed in a compact not to give athletes an advantage in admissions. They developed a formula, the AI, and agreed among themselves as a sports league not to have any athlete accepted who had an AI value below a certain level. The only components in the AI are SAT, 3 SAT II values, and class rank. I won't say that it would be impossible for a star (white) athlete to be accepted with a 1200/1600, but he/she would probably have to have 3 SAT II's of 800 each and a #1 class rank.

If URM have an advantage, but it is apparently so small that it doesn't really affect anything, I still feel that the special interest minority groups are not going to be happy.

glucose101

What about ACT scores?

Northstarmom

Interesting info here from a May, 2005 Boston Globe.

"At the 19 selective institutions the authors studied -- ranging from five Ivy League schools to smaller colleges like Bowdoin and Williams and a few "public Ivies" like the University of Virginia -- a poor student with an SAT score of 1200 (under the old scoring system) had almost precisely the same chance of admission as the son of a neurosurgeon with the same score. Many college leaders don't even realize that's the case, the authors say.
*The class of the class

In contrast, recruited athletes had, on average, a 30 percentage-point admissions advantage (so a student whose grades otherwise gave him a 20 percent chance of getting in leapt up to 50-50 if he'd caught a coach's eye).

Black and Latino students had a 28 percentage-point advantage, while legacy students got a 20 percentage-point break. For poor students (who, incidentally, graduate from selective colleges at the same rate as the student body as a whole): nada." http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ide...mative_action/