srunni

RAID0 and rsync in cron jobs - 0 (zero) maintenance. DVD if it's really important, but that's rare.

That doesn't mean all the machines have to be Macs.

That's true, and I almost never use Windows...

Open source developers aren't concerned about an attractive consumer base, as they're not trying to sell their software.

I would if it were possible. But open source hardware is not very common, so it's besides the point.

Or more likely because they're not getting paid for their efforts. It's absolute nonsense that they don't support platforms in common commercial use. Look at The GIMP, or Pidgin - they both support Windows and fulfill uses that are very common among the average user. I don't see them jumping to use Windows or Mac to develop on.

The percentage of the Apple consumers that are engineers buying a Mac for its technical merits is nothing compared to the average consumers that stroll into the Apple store because the company is hip.

I think it's ridiculous that it's forced on you. You don't have a choice. Apple offers you no choice. You either do everything exactly as they want you to, or you go somewhere else.

BCEagle91

> RAID0 and rsync in cron jobs - 0 (zero) maintenance. DVD if it's really
> important, but that's rare.

So you do this on your laptop? How do you restore? How is the convenience compared to wireless automated backup? You never change the media? Is this going to work for the average consumer?

> That doesn't mean all the machines have to be Macs.

There are benefits to a homogeneous hardware environment.

> That's true, and I almost never use Windows...

So Ubuntu isn't Open Source because it ships with Firefox?

> Open source developers aren't concerned about an attractive
> consumer base, as they're not trying to sell their software.

Then why do open source projects typically support Windows and Mac OSX? There are a lot of motivations to do open source projects. One is the opportunity to showcase your skills so that you're considered for paid jobs.

> I would if it were possible. But open source hardware is not very
> common, so it's besides the point.

I've already read about an open source GPU project. I don't know if you can buy a reference chip but it should be soon possible. Of course it is easier to just buy what nVidia or ATI is peddling.

> Or more likely because they're not getting paid for their efforts. It's
> absolute nonsense that they don't support platforms in common commercial
> use. Look at The GIMP, or Pidgin - they both support Windows and fulfill
> uses that are very common among the average user. I don't see them
> jumping to use Windows or Mac to develop on.

You know for a fact that none of their developers use Windows or Mac for development?

> The percentage of the Apple consumers that are engineers buying a
> Mac for its technical merits is nothing compared to the average
> consumers that stroll into the Apple store because the company is hip.

Yes, but what about the percentage of engineers that use Apples on the
technical merits as a percentage of engineers?

> I think it's ridiculous that it's forced on you. You don't have a choice. Apple
> offers you no choice. You either do everything exactly as they want you
> to, or you go somewhere else.

A lot of life is like that. The tax code works that way too.

srunni

I meant RAID1, which is for my desktop/server, whereas the rsync cron job is for the laptop (to the desktop/server). I'm not sure how this is not automated. It's funny you should mention wireless automated backup, because Time Machine doesn't support that. And of course it's not going to work for the average consumer, but the average consumer doesn't back up, so that's irrelevant. Also, I'm talking about why Linux is better for a developer, not for the average user.

And there are also downsides, such as problems which you may not catch when all your hardware is identical.

Yes, it is...not sure what you mean here.

Should soon be possible. So it's not possible right now. Besides, if the drivers are open source, that works for me. Which is something that ATi is working on right now.

No, but I know for a fact that they are not claiming to all use Windows or Mac, just because they have higher market shares than Linux.

That has absolutely nothing to do with your initial statement that Apple's sales have been robust in recent times.

The tax code is not like that. You can move to another country. It just so happens that it's a lot easier not to use a Mac than it is to move to another country, so it's much more common for someone not to use a Mac than it is for them to move to another country because they don't like the tax code.

BCEagle91

> I meant RAID1, which is for my desktop/server, whereas the rsync cron job is
> for the laptop (to the desktop/server). I'm not sure how this is not
> automated. It's funny you should mention wireless automated backup,
> because Time Machine doesn't support that. And of course it's not going to
> work for the average consumer, but the average consumer doesn't back up,
> so that's irrelevant.

Sorry. Time Capsule.

> And there are also downsides, such as problems which you may not
> catch when all your hardware is identical.

Well this is true if all of your testing is on one platform. Which is why a broad testing program is important. But you can certainly push that out to your open source testing community. But for build and regression test, homogeneous can work very well.

> Yes, it is...not sure what you mean here.

Your argument that Firefox isn't open source. Or something similar.

> Should soon be possible. So it's not possible right now. Besides, if the
> drivers are open source, that works for me. Which is something that ATi is
> working on right now.

But the "code" for the chip isn't available.

> That has absolutely nothing to do with your initial statement that Apple's
> sales have been robust in recent times.

Sure it does. Unless you think that there hasn't been a concomitant increase in engineering purposes along with consumer purchases. That so many open source projects ship Mac OSX versions should kill that ridiculous thought.

> The tax code is not like that. You can move to another country. It just so
> happens that it's a lot easier not to use a Mac than it is to move to
> another country, so it's much more common for someone not to use a
> Mac than it is for them to move to another country because they don't
> like the tax code.

I don't think it's that hard to move to another country. But perhaps it's
hard for some. Perhaps moving from one state to another would be a simpler analogy.

srunni

Ah, didn't see that. Well, the fact that it took so long for support to come out for wireless backup after Time Machine was released, when it should have been supported from the beginning, is a clear example of how the closed source development method results in unexplainable delays for features which should have been very simple to implement. If it were open source, someone else could've easily created a patch to add that support, rather than depending on ugly hacks to get it working.

Also, why do you need a special piece of hardware for wireless backup? That's completely ridiculous.

And there's nothing wrong with pushing out the testing for Macs to the open source testing community either, if there as many people jumping to Macs as you seem to think.

I never said anything like that. Firefox is open source, it's just that a company has found a way to profit off of it, which impacts their development methods.

And yes, that's unfortunate, but there is no alternative right now, as you said earlier.

Actually, they ship with a Mac OS X version because it's easy to port to OS X's X11 from Linux. Several projects (OpenOffice, The GIMP, and Pidgin come to mind) currently only have support for OS X through X11, because supporting a Carbon or Cocoa version of the application would require an enormous amount of extra effort.

Besides, that still has nothing to do with the fact that people have moved to OS X because of other, external, factors, not because of the applications available. The applications became available because there was an increased usage of OS X.

Now that's just absurd. My parents moved to the US, and it was most definitely difficult, and decades later they are still adjusting.

Perhaps, but it's still very difficult to do. I have done so, and there is plenty of adjusting involved. It's a lot more difficult than something as trivial as switching OSs.

BCEagle91

"Ah, didn't see that. Well, the fact that it took so long for support to come out for wireless backup, which should have been supported from the beginning, is a clear example of how the closed source development method results in unexplainable delays for features which should have been very simple to implement. If it were open source, someone else could've easily created a patch to add that support, rather than depending on ugly hacks to get it working."

I work in both worlds and see problems with both models. Of course one could simply ask the question: why hasn't the Open Source model produced something like Mac OSX and its associated hardware platforms?

> And there's nothing wrong with pushing out the testing for Macs to the
> open source testing community either, if there as many people jumping
> to Macs as you seem to think.

Well that is possible but you need machines for doing builds and regression tests and have a fleet of machines allows you to get these jobs done in parallel.

> I never said anything like that. Firefox is open source, it's just that a
> company has found a way to profit off of it, which impacts their
> development methods.

And that's for the better, right?

> Actually, they ship with a Mac OS X version because it's easy to port to
> OS X's X11 from Linux. Several projects (OpenOffice, The GIMP, and Pidgin
> come to mind) currently only have support for OS X through X11, because
> supporting a Carbon or Cocoa version of the application would require an
> enormous amount of extra effort.

I guess the Mac Varianted code is in there just for fun. Or does four bytes per pixel = three bytes per pixel?

> Now that's just absurd. My parents moved to the US, and it was most
> definitely difficult, and decades later they are still adjusting.

We have assets in other countries. I don't think that it would be that hard to move.

> Perhaps, but it's still very difficult to do. I have done so, and there is
> plenty of adjusting involved. It's a lot more difficult than something as
> trivial as switching OSs.

The nice thing about software engineering is that location isn't as important as it is in many other jobs. I work with people around the world. Some with multiple residences that spend some time in one climate and the rest of the year in a different climate.

srunni

Because the Apple model is the antithesis of open source...it involves closed hardware and closed software. The open source model will never produce something like Apple's products.

So have a few Macs...there's no need to waste money for all of them to be able to test for Macs.

Yes...so?

Well, it's not like there's going to be support if one of those numerous Mac developers you keep mentioning doesn't come forward and offer to create a Mac port.

Try it before making a judgment about how difficult it would be.

I really don't see the relevancy of this...you brought up moving to contrast it with software development, not as a part of the software development process.

BCEagle91

> Because the Apple model is the antithesis of open source...it involves
> closed hardware and closed software. The open source model will never
> produce something like Apple's products.

You didn't get the point. Why can't there's be an open source model
that produces a product that does the same thing as Apple's products?
We have Linux as something that does much of what Microsoft Windows
does.

> So have a few Macs...there's no need to waste money for all of them to
> be able to test for Macs.

That's a decision that they made to have a homogeneous environment and
it has apparently worked out well for them. They did choose the cheapest
Macs thought if that makes you feel any better.

> Well, it's not like there's going to be support if one of those
> numerous Mac developers you keep mentioning doesn't come forward and
> offer to create a Mac port.

I don't know the genesis of the Mac Port. I think that Josh was the
first full-time engineer put on the project a few years ago.

> Try it before making a judgment about how difficult it would be.

We have residences in other countries and other states. How hard would
it be?

> I really don't see the relevancy of this...you brought up moving to
> contrast it with software development, not as a part of the software
> development process.

You're claiming that moving is hard. Software development allows you
some level of geographical independence which makes it easier for
software engineers to move.

srunni

And what exactly is it that Apple does that is so great that you want in Linux? DRM? Premium prices? A very limited set of hardware that you can use with the OS?

Who is "they"? If you're referring to Mozilla, as I already said, they have plenty of money to waste, so that's irrelevant.

What project are you talking about? I'm referring to open source programs in general...

Adjusting to the cultural and language barriers can be very difficult. Finding a residence is only part of the process.

But I'm referring to moving in general, not to moving for software engineers. It was meant to be a parallel example, not an example related to the topic of software development. And as I said above, there is more to moving than finding a job.

BCEagle91

"And what exactly is it that Apple does that is so great that you want in Linux? DRM? Premium prices? A very limited set of hardware that you can use with the OS?"

I don't think that it would go in Linux. Rather a separate OS. Mainly something that just works for most people, experts and non-experts alike. Clearly there is a market for such a product.

"Who is "they"? If you're referring to Mozilla, as I already said, they have plenty of money to waste, so that's irrelevant."

Well, it's your opinion that the money is wasted. I assume that they went through some open process and decided on what the best platform would be.

"Adjusting to the cultural and language barriers can be very difficult. Finding a residence is only part of the process."

We hire people from around the world. Sure, there's an adjustment period but that can be quite enjoyable for both the natives and those moving in.

"But I'm referring to moving in general, not to moving for software engineers. It was meant to be a parallel example, not an example related to the topic of software development. And as I said above, there is more to moving than finding a job."

Sure. But it's not impossible. A corporate relo package certainly helps.

srunni

What's wrong with Linux? And of course there is a market for such a product—it's been filled by Windows for the past ~15 years. Things may be changing, but so far Windows has been the general purpose operating system.

I seriously doubt that. They're a privately owned company. They just produce open source software, that's all. If someone is interested in taking the development in a different direction, they're of course free to fork Firefox.

It might be enjoyable, but it can still be tough. You have to realize that most of the people you hire are already going to know English, whereas if an American moved to another country, there's a good chance he/she would have to learn a new language, which by itself is a huge barrier

Well, money/knowing you have a job waiting for you always helps. But that's really not the point. You're also leaving a lot behind, and that can be difficult to do.

BCEagle91

"What's wrong with Linux? And of course there is a market for such a
product—it's been filled by Windows for the past ~15 years. Things may
be changing, but so far Windows has been the general purpose operating
system."

Many do not like the direction that Windows took with Vista. It was
hoped that Windows 7 would be a do-over but that's not going to happen.

"I seriously doubt that. They're a privately owned company. They just
produce open source software, that's all. If someone is interested in
taking the development in a different direction, they're of course
free to fork Firefox."

I don't see why a different direction is needed. There are special
purpose variants but keeping up with the fairly frequent changes in
FF can be a fair amount of work.

"It might be enjoyable, but it can still be tough. You have to realize
that most of the people you hire are already going to know English,
whereas if an American moved to another country, there's a good chance
he/she would have to learn a new language, which by itself is a huge
barrier"

That's one of the joys of life - learning. I'm not the best with
learning languages in a vacuum but immersion would probably work
out a lot better.

"Well, money/knowing you have a job waiting for you always helps. But
that's really not the point. You're also leaving a lot behind, and
that can be difficult to do."

You're never really leaving everything behind. It's so easy to go back
and visit and you can keep in touch via the internet. Sometimes it's
too easy to keep in touch.

srunni

Part of the issue with Windows is the support for all the legacy stuff, which makes it a general purpose operating system. They make most of their money from site licenses at businesses, and legacy support is essential at those businesses, as their in-house applications are usually not written very well and would be hard to update. Apple, on the other hand, derives a very small portion of its business from companies, so it's free to make changes as it pleases, since the applications for the Mac are usually consumer applications, which are written by much more competent programmers, regardless of the platform.

I'm not saying it should be forked, just that this is a significant difference from the average company that produces a program.

BCEagle91

"Part of the issue with Windows is the support for all the legacy stuff, which makes it a general purpose operating system. They make most of their money from site licenses at businesses, and legacy support is essential at those businesses, as their in-house applications are usually not written very well and would be hard to update. Apple, on the other hand, derives a very small portion of its business from companies, so it's free to make changes as it pleases, since the applications for the Mac are usually consumer applications, which are written by much more competent programmers, regardless of the platform."

The net effect is the same. Companies aren't going to Vista. Yeah, a few of them are but most see no benefit to the pain.

They did drop some some legacy support in Windows XP x64 Edition and I think that this was the way to go. They did a pretty nice engineering job on this version - but apparently marketing wasn't interested in it.