Dbate

NbaChris it is ridiculus to assert:
His general promise is to push for withdrawal. What he won't promise is a strict ideologically-driven rulebook that ignores the unpredictable situation in Iraq. This is what he's said all along, and if you got the wrong impression, then the blame lies with you.

Because he did speak of a strict rule he said: 16 months, not 19 months or even two years, but he EXPLICTLY said 16 MONTHS there is no denying that, but as i am concerned this conversation is over.

Dbate

What is ametuer is to refer to something as BS:

NATIONAL JOURNAL: Obama: Most Liberal Senator in 2007 (01/31/2008)

That is not ametuer but a legit ranking of politicians, even if he only came to vote on important things which is what politicians do, then why was Clinton not as liberal.

Dbate

Nbachris i am not trying to be rude, and if seems that way i apologize, but the things we are debating are mute. Even if Obama had continually said he would listen to generals he also stated a 16 month withdrawal and made that a focal point to his primary campaign, without also highlighting listening to generals, so that it seemed like a flip flop. But it want matter if just keep arguing, you can vote for Obama and i will vote for McCain, and we'll see who wins.

Btw:
I predict McCain wins, by a slight majority of electoral votes. And that half the swing states go to Obama and the other half McCain, Obama undercuts the Republican stronghold in several states but fails to win the state and therefore results in no electoral numbers, but rather a diffusion away from swing states. McCain responds by continually hounding swing states in cheap fashion appealing to more likely voters (old, middle class whites) who dominate nearly every swing state and therefore still polls well. But ultimately i think Obama will lose, especially if the campaign plans on relying on public contributions, bc the more he is around the less appealing his novelty will be and therefore the less likely individuals (like you and me) will contribute money.

Let's turn this thread into a prediction of how the election will play out.

Dbate

On another note, the media seems to make a big deal of the historic sums that Obama is raising but that is misleading in context. Bc his campaign after beating Clinton only had about 33 million whereas McCain's campaign had about 31 million on hand left to use for the summer. Therefore the gamble Obama is taking on not using the public financing system is risky as the reason he was able to raise so much during the primaries was due to his appeal as a novelty. But by his positioning to the center, makes him seem like a typical politican and therefore undercuts his idealistic position, this ultimately will have some impact on fundraising bc individual donors of like 500 dollars or more contributed heavily to his campaigns finances during the primary. But also his novelty is doubly jeopardized by his over exposure in the media, ultimately the reoccurance of seeing Obama will cause him to become more like a common occurance than a ground breaking new politician.

Btw, this is from doing domestic extempt (i know others of you do it ), but lets discuss.

nbachris2788

Obama always said that as commander-in-chief, he would reserve the right to re-assess the situation at any given time. Your notion that this was not the case is based on your "feelings" that he did not emphasize this caveat (which he did, by the way). The "Well, that's the feeling I got" argument is not a solid one.

People are only thinking that Obama has flip-flopped because they are low-information voters who naturally assume that all Democrats want immediate and unconditional withdrawal. If you cared to pay attention to everything Obama said in 2007 and during the primaries, he has never advocated a rigid withdrawal plan.

Again, always with the "assess the situation" caveat. You simply cannot keep denying that Obama has repeatedly said that. If you got the "feeling" that Obama didn't emphasize his conditional plan, then that's your fault.

Clinton moved up like 30 spots from the last assessment. It's a fact that Obama is more liberal than Clinton (which was why he had so much online and grassroots support). But it's stupidity to honestly believe that Obama is more socialist than Bernie Sanders. That's Fox News level idiocy.

Obama will still fill up Invesco Field while McCain will struggle to compete with the opening weekend of the NFL season.

HiWei

Remember when this thread was a poll (with numbers)?

Sheed30

no........but you're like the 50th person to "remind" everyone....

HiWei

^ A little angry, aren't we? Haha.

BedHead

Dbate is right. Some will vote for Obama and others for McCain and we'll see who wins.

Where Dbate is totally wrong is in suggesting that Obama flip-flopped on the Iraq issue. He's kept with his basic premise: the Iraq War was a stupid diversion from the fight against terrorism of the sort we saw on 9/11. Many people with serious national security credentials -- and a wide majority of US citizens -- feel the same way. And he said he'd withdraw in 16 months. And he said he'd confer with his generals who work for the CIC. And he said he'd make sure to have a plan that allowed for him to consider the situation on the ground.

We would not be served by having a politician who said that under any circumstances he or she would follow one rigid plan.

Obama got this totally right. And if you want to look at who the flip-flopper is, here you go. Talk about making it up as you go along:

YouTube - The Real McCain 2

Lumine

"Some will vote for Obama and others for McCain and we'll see who wins."

Wow. I haven't heard anyone state the obvious like that in a very, very long time.

vossron

Wow, BH, that is amazing; I had no idea. Still, I think McCain is an honorable man whose memory isn't what it used to be (neither is mine). Has Fox or other partisan put together a similar montage of Obama?

BedHead

Oh, they do all day long, in a constant drumbeat, but they have a lot less to go on so they make stuff up. Sad, but true.

Chief56

Ron Paul by write in ahaha

nbachris2788

Correct. That's the Bush school of thought.

Dbate

As far as McCain is concerned i am well aware of his flip-flopping, bc well that is what politicians do in the primaries, appeal to a base and then move to the center for the general election. The problem i have with Obama doing this, is that he expressly stated that he would withdraw in 16 months. The conditions were sixteen months period, throughout the primary season until he decided to change it.

Barack Obama's aide suggested renege on Iraq troop pledge

Obama Struggles to Explain His Iraq Policy - July 3, 2008 - The New York Sun

From the article:

"Mr. Obama's Web site contains this direct promise about Iraq: "Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al-Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al-Qaeda."


Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Iraq

In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008.

In fact on the Senate Floor in January he didn't mention listening to generals when he offered the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007.

Floor Statement on Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007 | U.S. Senator Barack Obama

The point blank of the matter is that Obama, did offer a rigid timetable for pulling out of Iraq, and NOONE can deny that was a central theme of his primary run.