UCSDJake12

If the civil rights movement had been left to referendum there would still be segregation today.

WCF

I understand why you would be suspicious of government intervention. It's odd to say that, in a time when the government is absolutely massive, that the government needs to be one controlling people. I just feel like for this issue specifically, they should have.

Prop 8 was direct democracy. They took it to the people and they voted directly, passing it by a mere 52% (which...imo, is not a good majority).

I would actually agree with you that Americans are generally educated. To say anything else would just be cynical. But I think Prop 8 was a special case.

It was spearheaded by religion. Now, religion is a personal part of many people's lives, even the educated ones. But the problem is that a lot of people simply don't challenge it. If their religion says something is wrong, then they will blindly follow without question. If their church says something is immoral, then they will agree for fear of going against their own spiritual doctrine. Their religion is something they love and it is very hard for them to challenge this. Already, it seems unfair to have to put this to a vote.

The same thing goes for non-religious prejudices. I explained in my last post the case of minority prejudice. Even the educated can have this irrationality. Woodrow Wilson, an otherwise intelligent president, was widely accused of being a racist. He was likely a product of his time just as supporters of Prop 8 are a product of ours.

It really is a double whammy that religion and minority prejudice went against gay marriage. Both undermine people's thinking, even those that would otherwise be educated people. I knew plenty of otherwise intelligent people who supported Prop 8 for the sake of their own religion. This just furthers my beliefs that everything about Prop 8 was wrong - everything from the morality of it to the way it was legislated.

Yes. Freedom is a double-edged sword. That's why we have these discussions though; to determine what the best option is. What is more important, the freedom for a minority to attain equality or the freedom for the majority to strip them of that right? I think the answer is obvious; society has no need for the latter "freedom."

SkepSkap1

Doesn't everyone thinks it's crazy that people waste their time voting on this stuff? It blows my mind that anyone, anywhere, religious or not, cares if two guys ****. And that's what this is. Has nothing to do with legal this or that- people hate gay people and want them to be non-existant to them. I don't care if it offends your religion. Maybe you ****ing hatred towards gay people offends me. I don't make your beliefs illegal, do I? Are you so hopelessly in need of a system of control that you can't think for yourselves?

It amazes me that someone will teach their kids that homosexual people are unnatural, but that war is necessary. I've never sat around and thought "Wow, somewhere, someplace on earth, some guy has his ***** in another guy's anus. ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!" It's not a big deal. Can we get back to worrying about starving people, people killing other people, wars, big corporations and forms of imprisonment around the world now? Or is Ellen Degeneres' choice to scissor still keeping you up at night?

WCF

Thank you for the bluntness SkepSkap. I really wish people had something better to do than to go ape over other people's business. Now we're all caught up in an issue that shouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

Living in such a brainwashed, conservative town, Prop 8 was a huge issue here. It was up there with the presidential election! You saw a "Yes on 8!" on every other yard! I wouldn't be surprised if it had surpassed the presidential race itself!

The day after Prop 8 passed was especially infuriating. The teacher was reading the results of the night's elections to the class and when he said that Prop 8 passed, little girls started jumping up and down for joy and screaming as if Jesus himself had come down to save them all. I want to ask these people do you have any idea what you've just done? Of course they don't. But their church tells them it's right and the Bible tells them it's right and that voice in their head tells them it's right so, to them, it must be right!

You know people have stooped to another low when they celebrate the stripping of another group's rights (Mormons declared it a holiday...). And then they go on to say it's the righteous and moral thing to boot! They're so happy that those evil homosexuals can't invade their churches and steal their property anymore. You know, cause that totally would have happened. It's disgusting. It really is.

Lethal Fairy

During that election I was monitoring the results on the internet. When the counting was over I practically cried. I am not gay, but I identify as queer. I am in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, though. It's a strange world of not identifying with heterosexuals, but not quite identified with LGBTQ people either. I was so sad for everyone who is not straight. It didn't help that Arkansas and Florida were being jerks about the rights of non-heterosexuals, too. The LGBTQ community was so thrilled during the brief time same sex marriage was legal and then they lost their rights again.

How come the proponents of "religious freedom" don't care about the religious freedom of religious institutions who want to marry people of the same sex. Why no respect for Wiccas, Buddhists, or the many mainstream religious churches that would gladly accept same sex couples? Oh, because they're not yours so they don't get their religious freedom. It's all about your religious freedom and what your church wants.

Another aspect of the Prop 8 campaign was claims that schools would be educating children on homosexuality. People were afraid of their children learning about homosexuality. I'm not quite sure of the rationale. Same sex marriage didn't mandate a gay sex curriculum that I know of. And even if homosexuality was added to a reasonable part of the curriculum, say sex education where it would be nice if it was mentioned, I don't see the problem anyway. Did people think their child is never going to learn about the bees and the bees? Prop 8 proves the stupidity of Californian parents.

I like how people against same sex marriage like to claim that it's their right to oppose it and marriage isn't a right and how we should respect other peoples opinions. I'll give you that you can oppose same sex marriage all you want but it's wrong to put your opinion into legislation. I will say, I respect the opinions of someone who wants to legislate their opposition to same sex marriage as much as they respect the rights of the minority they are hell bent on oppressing. Saying marriage isn't a right is pretty easy when you're the majority who has the privilege to marry who you want to. Try taking your heterosexist blinders off. The world is not heterosexual, gender binary, nor is our sexuality unchanging. No one orientation or identification is more valid than the other.

Speaking of heterosexist, that's a term for people who don't like gay people. "Heterosexism is a term that applies to negative attitudes, bias, and discrimination in favor of opposite-sex sexuality and relationships. It can include the presumption that everyone is heterosexual or that opposite-sex attractions and relationships are the norm and therefore superior. Even though people of any sexual orientation can hold such attitudes and bias, heterosexist discrimination ranks gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals as second-class citizens with regard to legal and civil rights, economic opportunities, and social equality in the majority of the world’s jurisdictions and societies."

Heterosexism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know, it's Wikipedia, but whatever.

Now you guys who hate LGBTQ people have a term all your own! You're not homophobic, you're heterosexist! It's nice to have a term that conveys your disdain for a particular group of people without implying a fear of them. The promised land has finally come!

WCF

Really, the entire Prop 8 movement was based on nothing but bigotry and religion. I consider myself a middle of the road guy, so when I see an issue where no argument of the opposing side makes any sense whatsoever, I know something is up (this is the only time that's ever happened). Unlike virtually every other issue out there, nothing Pro-Prop 8 ever made me think "hm, this person may have a point." Trust me. I tried. I really tried to understand and sympathize with the opposing view. But I just couldn't - it was a ridiculous movement.

Whether these people know it or not, all the logic used to support Prop 8 was so severely flawed and only served as a poor attempt to rationalize the prejudice.

Take the "teaching children in schools" thing for example. This was by far the most popular statement I heard in regards to supporting Prop 8. Yet it really doesn't mean anything at all. What does it mean? I didn't even understand what people meant when they said this and I doubt they did either.

Could people be referring to the fact that schools just might actually encourage gay marriage? I hope I don’t have to get into why that would be such a ridiculous claim. Maybe, when people say "teach gay marriage in schools," they are referring to gay marriage being taught in the history books? I sincerely hope this isn’t the case either as it just screams overprotection from reality. Eventually, I came to realize that people must have been referring to the fact that schools just might have actually encouraged tolerance towards gays! God forbid our schools teach our kids tolerance!

Does anyone else see that that argument is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt at rationalizing intolerance and bigotry? I've asked people to explain what they meant when they said they didn't want kids being "taught gay marriage in school" and no one could explain. All it was was a talking point spoonfed to them. They don't even understand what it is. Perhaps if they dug deeper, they'd realize its bigoted roots.

The same goes for many other Prop 8 arguments. None of the following have any grain of truth to them whatsoever, yet, somehow the plethora of misinformation spread anyway:

-A lot of people thought civil unions were exactly the same as marriages!
-One of the most popular claims was that gay marriage would force churches into performing and accepting the ceremonies
-If we legalize gay marriage, we'll have to legalize marriage to objects, children, family, etc!
-I even heard some people claim civil unions are fine because Elton John himself supported civil unions! Hahaha...so many things wrong with that one. How about we start with the fact that he doesn't even live here?

Basically, when people find their traditions and religion being challenged, they don't want to let go. They don't second-guess these arguments, they just blindly follow in hopes that they can save them from change. It REALLY worries me that people could so quickly convert themselves into blind sheep. These people are directly legislating in our state!

Lethal Fairy

Good old slippery slope fallacy. It's an epic fail in the logic department. I particularly like "if we legalize gay marriage, what's next?! Marriage to pets/children?!"

It says something terrible about a person when they have the audacity to compare non-heterosexuals to animals and pedophiles. Talk about dehumanizing.

lockn

Yup, they compare gay people to pedophiles, but they definitely aren't homophobic.

Lethal Fairy

They're heterosexist! It's more PC.

Topolover

Funny you should mention that. There's 30 republicans that agree- Video: Rape-Nuts | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

chickenfight!

To all those who state that we should leave other people's opinions alone:
There is a problem with this country when we value respecting others' opinions more than we value critically examining them to discern whether or not they have any place in society. Opinions are fine and dandy, but when they encroach upon someone else's life, they are no longer merely 'opinions'; they are crimes.

Smallz3141

I thought the first amendment made it pretty clear that the right of other people to have opinions is always higher than any "icky" feeling you may have about it. I may hate the fact that I have to walk behind someone who's smoking, that doesn't give me the right to ban smoking.

Topolover

I dunno. I feel icky because you mentioned feeling icky.

Freedom of opinion is certainly a human right, but I don't recall it being mentioned in the Constitution.

Smallz3141

^ haha, maybe I feel icky at your... 'ickyness'.

And I should have been more clear; freedom to express one's opinion is certainly more valued (via 1st amendment) than "examining them to discern whether or not they have any place in society".

And the only reason it "encroaches" on your life, chickenfight, is because you are intolerant.

Topolover

I'm with Smallz on this one. Though I don't recall where in the 1st A it says that there is freedom of opinion.