BuddyMcAwesome

there is a always going to be a need to be selfish because people have a need for wants. The people that are complacent with the status quo are those who will not create the new thing that people didn't know could be done. Henry Ford said, "If you asked the people what they wanted, they'd ask for a faster horse." There is no such thing as perfection. People will always strive for better. If we don't we are doomed to fail.

SkepSkap1

You sound like an Ayn Rand fan.

cobmojo

there's no such thing as perfection but there is such a thing as the end of scarcity. that is communism.

ThisCouldBeHeavn

Individualism?

BuddyMcAwesome

Ughh, I couldn't bear to live in a society where my hard work meant nothing for me. And, who is going to figure out how to end scarcity if they don't get any compensation for it?

SkepSkap1

The problem isn't striving to make better horses though. Individual rights to be super rich isn't really important when the world is in ****ing turmoil. You certainly have a right to buy a solid gold Hummer, but you're also a **** for doing it.

BuddyMcAwesome

no, your not a jerk for doing so. Altruism is not a moral trait. Selfishness is.

cobmojo

"Ughh, I couldn't bear to live in a society where my hard work meant nothing for me. And, who is going to figure out how to end scarcity if they don't get any compensation for it?"
You got it all wrong, It's not about no more work if that's what you want. It just free you up to do what you want. If you your interested in making furniture you can make furniture because it is something you love to do.

"no, your not a jerk for doing so. Altruism is not a moral trait. Selfishness is."
It annoys me so much when I hear folks say stuff like selfishness is inherent or it's a moral trait.
It's not. We are not innately selfish. We are a product of our environment and the material world and that's it.

BuddyMcAwesome

Im not saying that selfishness is inherent. What I am saying is that selfishness is good.

cobmojo

I'd agree with you buddy. Selfishness is good for capitalism, it is also a condition of capitalism. But everything ends and selfishness cannot and will not reign forever.

BuddyMcAwesome

when selfishness ends, we'll all be eloi (I hope you get that reference)

SkepSkap1

Buying a solid gold hummer does make you a jerk.

That's part of the problem with capitalism- people not only take it as individual freedom, they take it as "**** responsibility and other people".

What you're saying, "selfishness is good" is SORT of true. We do all act in our own interests, and no one should define themselves with other people (marriage, children, etc) or by the things they do for other people. Self mediation, an inward journey, is essential, and people should think of themselves and their feelings and how THEY interpret things.

That being said, decadence and extravagance isn't freedom. Ever heard of "He with the most toys wins"? Hackneyed phrase, but it's where the greatness of capitalism always ends- at the same place communism and every other system does. A small percentage of wealthy people run everything. Real freedom, free thinking, has nothing to do with a fake money system, so just don't trump it up more than it is.

math+sci=asian

Marxism is unachievable without human planning, and human planning will always go wrong horribly on such a large scale. 1 small error could cause the whole system to go down, not including huge ideological mistakes like Lenin's or widespread corruption.

And I disagree with you guys. Selfishness is inherent, we've evolved (or been created) that way. That's why capitalism works or is even in the question.

"It's not. We are not innately selfish. We are a product of our environment and the material world and that's it"

If you put a baby who let's say somehow can survive on its own into the wild, it would not be selfish? Give me a break. If it's a creation of our material world, farming etc. would never have been created in the first place. Selfishness drives nearly everything somebody does. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. Hell, Marxism is based on the idea that peasants are selfish enough to care.

cobmojo

"If you put a baby who let's say somehow can survive on its own into the wild, it would not be selfish? Give me a break. If it's a creation of our material world, farming etc. would never have been created in the first place. Selfishness drives nearly everything somebody does. And it's not necessarily a bad thing."

No, you missed the idea of material conditions. If that baby had no need to compete with others for scarce resources (in the wild) it would change the baby's mentality about everything and thus not be selfish.
The reason for that baby to grow up only looking out for itself is because THE ENVIRONMENT wouldn't permit anything else. Thanks for proving my point.

"Hell, Marxism is based on the idea that peasants are selfish enough to care."
What? Do you know anything about Marxism?

"Marxism is unachievable without human planning, and human planning will always go wrong horribly on such a large scale. 1 small error could cause the whole system to go down, not including huge ideological mistakes like Lenin's or widespread corruption."
Wrong. This does not reflect Marxism or Communism.

SkepSkap1

Why are we squabbiling about which system is better for a government to control us with anyway? **** Marxism, Communism, Capitialism, Feminism, Individualism, Buddhism, Racism.