Megadethfan

so basically you have to PAY to be in a faternity? pay to have "best friends" im going to sdsu and the faternities there are really big, i read in TIME magazine that faternities are not such drunkards annymore, but i dont think ill get in on the ac count that most faternities dont want an ARAB brother who plays guitar and isnt too rich

lucifer11287

You don't PAY to have friends, and if you go in with an attitude like that you won't get a single bid. You PAY so your fraternity has money to buy alcohol for parties, maintain the house, etc. - you are providing the funding for your fraternity's activities.

Megadethfan

so you pay housing plus 1000? and those people are branded your brothers because they buy you booze? thats not how you make friends for a lifetime, you make them through experiences you have to go through in your life with those people, and i dont need some one telling me what to do...i just left my parents house...as you can tell i dont plan on joining, i just hate the frats because the force you conform into there stupid mold..thats just how it seems, im sure not all frats are like that, but i shouldnt have to dress acertain way to please someone and be friends wih them

lucifer11287

You managed to completely miss the point of my post. I didn't say you make friends with them because they buy you alcohol - I said you pay into a communal fund so your fraternity can have parties. You choose to rush a frat because you LIKE the brothers and enjoy hanging out with them; paying dues is simply a way of ensuring that your fraternity can actually have parties so you can party with your friends too. It is no different from having a house party with some friends and combining forces to buy booze - the booze is a byproduct of friendship, not a cause.

There are some frats that "tell you what to do" and that force you to conform; there are also plenty of frats that like having individuals instead of clones and really don't care as long as you're a cool person. It varies - and judging every fraternity based on just a few is foolish.

Finally, megadethfan, whether you like it or not how you dress has an effect on who you can be friends with. Frats or not, there are plenty of people who aren't going to hang out with people who dress certain ways, talk certain ways, or act certain ways. There are plenty of people who don't care.

Dima343

First off, I want to confirm something Riley has been talking about. I am currently attending college in Virginia and the laws here are insane, it is dangerous to walk around with alcohol on your person or in your body. Personally, I don't think that's a good law as it encourages drunk driving. Even those over 21 are not safe, I nkow several students at the law school who have gotten in trouble with the police for simply walking home after drinking at the bar, they have even taken to avoiding a certain bar in town because police are known to hang around it.

I do disagree with Riley's assessment of fraternities. First off, fraternities may have saved some of my friends from a criminal record in the fall. Although Virginia alcohol laws are explained during orientation, many people figure if they're ignoring one through underage drinking, they might as well ignore all and that it isnt a big deal or they simply skip out on orientation programs. At frat parties I was at when I just arrived on campus, there were always brothers there to make sure no one went outside holding a can of beer and would explain the law and how overzealous police here could be to anyone who tried. They also made sure to take care of people and were accepting of people's choices - my best friends during fall term were nondrinkers and were never pressured to drink at parties. Granted, all of this was because we have a winter rush at my school and a small student population relative to the number of fraternities, which means fraternities spend the fall bending over backwards to get freshman guys to rush. This is one of many reasons I like the idea of a winter rush.

Contrary to popular belief, fraternities are NOT all about drinking. My roommate is currently pledging a fraternity. He does not drink. Neither do three of his seven pledge brothers. HALF of his entire pledge class does not drink at all. The hall next to mine is a substance-free hall, for the most part it is made up of non-drinkers yet combined they are pledging five different fraternities (only one of them is pledging a dry frat). Clearly they've found that they could fit in without drinking.

I also disagree with the ideas of spending college with a group of guys exactly like you and of "buying friends." Again, this applies mostly to schools with winter rush but you spend the fall term getting toi know the guys at all the fraternities and becoming friends with them. I met my future fraternity brothers playing against them in intramurals. I rushed four houses in the winter and only considered (and only got bids to) the two where I walked in and knew everyone and all the brothers knew me. We became friends in the fall through common interests (IM sports) and because I liked hanging out through them, I didn't get their friendship by paying dues, doing embarassing activities or dressing a certain way. I don't know about you guys but it would take more than you giving me some money, dressing like me and dressing up like a clown and running around campus for me to be friends with you.

Regarding the money issue, Riley asked if those who cannot afford it could pledge as well as if they could attend parties. First off, all fraternity parties here are free and open to all students. They are paid for by the fraternities (that is why you pay dues). Personally, I would not have attended this school if that were not the case. I grew up in New York City and am used to being able to see a concert or go to a nightclub any weekend. No band or DJ would ever come to Lexington, VA if the fraternities did not bring them in and this school social life would be sorely lacking. And what if you can't afford dues? I'll tell you my story. I am a Russian immigrant who grew up in a poorer area of NYC and am at my college only because of a full scholarship. I did not plan on pledging a fraternity for financial reasons. When I rushed, I brought up the money issue and my friends at the fraternity all assured me that it was not a problem. Your fellow fraternity brothers are brothers for a reason, they take care of you. Many fraternities offer forms of aid or scholarships, check their websites, and some might have you wash dishes instead of paying dues or something like that. At my school, the Interfraternity Council offers scholarships as well.

Finally, I want to address the issue of "blanketing [yourself] with those who are just like [you]." Once again, I am from New York City, it is hard to get more diverse than that. I had never attended a school where white students made up the majority until reaching college. This was one of my reasons for pledging the fraternity I chose - with a higher percentage of black, hispanic, jewish and international students than any other fraternity on campus and in at least several if not all of these categories, than the campus as a whole. I have brothers from places as far apart as Georgia, Hawaii, Ecuador and Argentina. They all have something in common though, they all wonderful guys who I love spending time with. There are some frats that have no diversity at all here and there are one or two frats on this campus where, with a few exceptions, someone who is not white, southern, protestant and well-off need not apply but this is far from the truth with most fraternities on campus.

I hope the information I have provided will prove useful to those who have a stereotypical image of fraternities. An image that I believed in before I arrived on campus as there are almost no frats in New York City and frats at NE state schools (Rutgers come to mind) where a small percentage of students go Greek do fit the stereotypes as far as I have heard.

PS: My school publishes average fraternity GPA and ranks them and also compares it to the GPA of non-Greek students every year and every year, the average GPA of Greek men is higher than that of non-Greeks.

momwithquestions

I am the original poster. I just wanted to let you know that my son ended up in a frat, and he couldn't be happier. Drinking? Yes, it's there. He tells us all about it. But, it's life, and he is going to house parties, etc., not driving or bar hopping.

His school is very frat oriented, and I was very worried about what would happen if he didn't get into one. At least the worry is over.

One last thing....my son was accepted into a few very "prestigious schools" (although not Ivy), but he turned them down to go to the one he is at. He thanks me all the time for letting him go there. He has an intense course load, and has a 3.8 gpa for the first semester. the frats are making the pledges do 3 hours of study together EVERY night. although my son is the type who will always study at the drop of a hat, he is thankful for the comaraderie.

So, here is one parent who definetely votes for the frat scene.

Dima343

Out of curiousity momwithquestions, what school/frat is your son at?

Rileydog

Dima343

I appreciate your comments. I believe that each fraternity has its own culture and I also believe that a good frat could be a good experience for some individuals - choosing carefully is important but can everyone choose carefully and without emotional influence? Unfortunately, there are many frats that are not positive experiences or influences and in some schools, the social life does create peer pressure or at least peer presence to be part of Greek life. Many of the Frat GPAs at my son's school are lower than the average male GPA. The GPA required to maintain a fraternity on campus is not exactly stellar or the desired GPA for students hoping to go to grad school! How many students dreams are lost in the desire to pledge and join a frat?

Here is an interesting study regarding the GPA cycle for students participating in Greek life at a university in the Northeast compared with GPAs at a similar school in the Northeast without Greek life. In general, for males, joining a fraternity has a significant, negative impact on GPAs. This does not hold true in this study for sororities, excluding the second semester freshman year:
http://webserver.lemoyne.edu/~grovew...wp2003-001.pdf
If you don't have patience to read the whole article, I think the focus on frats falls on pages 9 to 12 and conclusions.

I hear what you are saying about the social life - this is what my son tells me as well. But, to me, that responsibility falls to the colleges and universities and not to fraternities and sororities, which, by nature, are not inclusive or broad in the type of social stimulation they provide. By allowing the frats and sororities to dominate social life, the colleges and universities have abdicated their responsibilities to students, parents and society in general...oh, dear, solidly on my high horse now....sorry. Would you have been interested in joining a frat if you had found a stimulating social network and environment on campus? I wonder. My son's school began rushing students days after we dropped him off - first semester rush, freshman year. That was a shock and he was quite vulnerable - wishing to replicate his group of friends from home, wishing to defuse homesickness, etc. Yet, during the college tours, we were repeatedly told that frats were not a big influence on campus. Duh! Colleges bear some responsibility to minimize the influence of Greeks on the social life of a campus - your comments say it all, frankly.

You are correct that there are few colleges/universities with active and/or positively viewed fraternity life in the NE and NYC area. I think you should consider why that is - there are educational, political and social reasons why frats do not take hold and grow in these areas, and are not viewed positively. The universal response I have received to the news that my son is joining a frat in Virginia has been a horrified face followed by the response - do you think he can transfer back here? LOL. It is worth noting that many of these people, including myself, hire college graduates and professionals regularly. I am wary of anyone who puts their frat or sorority membership on their resume and that is something to think about if you plan to return to NE or NY for future positions. I do understand the desire to join a frat, especially in areas where there is no other activity going on but, frankly, in most schools, the majority of students still do not join fraternities or sororoties and manage to put their time and efforts into discovering the other academic, community and social opportunities that present themselves.

Rileydog

momwithquestions - I am happy for you and your son as this is your desire for him. My son also tells me that the pledges must study together each night. Unfortunately, a bit too late, he has discovered that he studies much better alone - and at his own desk. I don't know how he is handling this but it is sad to me that students feel they have to make a choice between having a social life and making the best choices for themselves. I would like to think that my son would only act in his best interest but he finds himself in a social situation where being part of the frat means a lot to his future social life. I imagine that I would be thinking about having/keeping friends and being able to attend parties, as well, if I were stuck in a small town, 700 miles from home, at a school with no other social life - hard not to understand the pull.

Rileydog

lucifer11287 - you wish there was more hazing? because you want to prove to yourself, and everyone else, that you held up to the test - that you are special enough to wear the letters? This is all about self-esteem, lucifer, and perhaps a touch of elitism - are you sure you want to belong to a club that would have you? (I believe that is compliments of Groucho Marx!). No offense, but you should really think about that comment and what it says about why you are interested in fraternity life.

Megadethfan

ok i guess i can see some positive things about frats...i just dont know about binge drinking and such things, but i wouldnt mind joing one that the son of momwithquestion is in.

lucifer11287

Why do I think hazing is good? Because it ensures that everyone in the frat wants it badly enough. It helps to ensure that everyone who is in will be dedicated - if they toughed it through hazing, they obviously want to be in with me. It also helps bring a pledge class togather, as long as its done correctly (Don't believe me? Then why does the military use hazing to bring units togather?). I liken it to water polo summer practices during high school (effectively our training camp) - hard, brutal, but a good experience in retrospect. It weeded out those who didn't want to be on the team badly enough to care, and made those who got through it a closer, tighter knit unit. Same concept with hazing in frats, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous or disgusting. If you want to think that I need to "prove" myself, go ahead. I personally think that intelligently designed hazing is an effective way to bring people togather and weed out the people who don't care that much - ensuring dedicated fraternity members. A lot of people don't agree with me, and I can respect that - there are plenty of valid reasons not to haze.

I'll concede, to some degree, the elitism - I enjoy knowing that I have done/do things that other people couldn't and can't. I definately think I am tougher and smarter than most people, and have the evidence to back that up. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. I have zero problems admitting that - elitism isn't bad as long as its based on the right things and you can back your talk up.

FYI, I'm going to be pledging a fraternity that doesn't haze at all (not that anoyone really gets away with that much hazing up here). I have nothing to prove; I certainly could have rushed/pledged the few frats that haze even mildly up here if I had something to prove. Instead, I rushed and am going to pledge the frat I fit in best at.

EDIT: Just to be clear, and in case you didn't read my previous post, "normal" hazing is the kind involving booze/physical exertion (running, pushups, whatever)/mental or emotional toughness (talking trash to pledges, etc). Intelligently designed hazing is hard but keeps a solid saftey margin so as not to push anyone over the edge or anything. I'm certainly not advocating dangerous levels of hazing (i.e. making a pledge chug a handle or something stupid like that, making pledges run 20 miles in the cold, being so mentally harsh that someone cracks). There is a safe level, and as long as done correctly I stand by my statement that hazing is an effective deterrent to people who want to join just for the parties/who aren't really interested in/dedicated to the frat.

Dima343

Lucifer, I would not call activities like physical training hazing at all, and can agree with you about the benefits of that. What I consider hazing I see no point in whatsoever - I don't see what it proves to anyone if you eat a stick of butter covered in tabasco sauce except that you're desperate to fit in.

Riley, you're absolutely right. Had I gone to any other school I looked at before deciding last year, with the possible exception of UVA, the chances of me pledging a fraternity would be almost none. I would not do it at northeast/big city schools because there are so many alternatives (nighclubs, bars, other big parties) that there is no point - with the exception of the great living circumstances and food some frats provide relative to dorm living and cafeteria food.

But here in the rural south, other than mostly unsuccessful events the university holds (they had the date doctor come speak today, that was pretty interesting), there is NOTHING to do. Good bands and DJ's would practically never go anywhere near Lexington if it weren't for the frats. Over 70% of the population is involved in Greek Life and almost all the big events - homecoming, holiday weekend, even parents weekend - are controlled by the frats. You argue that it is the school's fault that it does not offer suitable alternatives. I disagree. I think the school has much more important things to focus on than throwing parties and being an alternative to frats. And if they did start throwing parties, I doubt they would come even close to the frat parties, which are improved by the competition between the 15 frats or so for attendance. I am an officer in a school-funded organization that offers alternatives to frat activities and while those are fun to attend, they rarely get the attendance good frat parties get and are best only as a change of pace.

Put simply, in the rural south, frats are necessary for a school to have a good social scene. That is why I would be very much surprised if schools like mine ever decided to get rid of frats, their value would plummet as people would not be able to bear living here for four years with such a poor social life.

Rileydog

lucifer - What is the role of frats/sororities on a college campus compared with the role of a military? I don't think frats/sororities are facting coups or need to protect themselves from life threatening attacks......right? I won't debate the techniques used in the military to establish a chain of command, train a group of individuals to act/react as "one" and/or establish that willingness to risk one's own life for country, but, surely the same need for mind and behavior control is not on a college campus. Ay! Don't we want the complete opposite of that type of thinking on campus???? What is it that you expect from your brothers - sounds like much more than friendship and a group to identify with. I hope you are not disappointed. Do you want your brothers to die for you, die for the frat? I am so concerned about your comments!

Intelligently designed hazing to ensure dedication to a social group???? Is that reasonable or rational? I suppose that kind of thinking is what has led to the deaths from hazing. Students believe they can design hazing activities to keep pledges just under the safety line but they cannot control for everyone's individaul response to physical or mental stress. Or, they just want to see how "dedicated" the pledge actually is.

There is never a positive to elitism, lucifer......a real man or "brother" looks down only to pick someone else up.

Rileydog

Dima343 - you have my sympathies for the environment you are in. If 70% of students are in Greek life and there is nothing else to do - well, you certainly can't be faulted for joining the Greeks. As with my own son, I would not want you to sit at home waiting for NYC to come to you! I hear what you are saying about entertainment from the school. I think it is only the biggest universities that are able to sustain an interesting social life. While visiting WM recently I found the campus quite dead at night, the list of daily events limited to an a capella event. I would be miserable mysefl. I wish you luck with this school - are you happy enough to stay there?