Mike89

Hi all,

I have become more religious recently and pray everyday in the morning. I pray in an Orthodox service because that is where I feel the most comfortable talking to G-d.

Anyways the school I will be attending as many Jews but none that pray in an Orthodox minyan. I keep asking if anyone will and always girls say they are willing to help out. The thing is girls dont participate in orthodox minyans.

what should I do and say without offending anyone.

modestmelody

I would contact your Hillel's director or a campus chaplain about finding an Orthodox minyan near campus. Where are you going to college, if you don't mind me asking?

Mike89

I have done that... but I would like one on campus so I dont have to drive every morning

Pseudonym

Then you're probably out of luck. You can of course try to start a daily Orthodox minyan when you get to school, advertise it through the Hillel and any other Jewish orgs, etc. If that doesn't work, oh well. It's not like there's no local option.

As for telling women who offer to help you out that they can't without offending them... in many cases, not possible. Some people are going to be pretty offended that you require a minyan which doesn't include them. Can't you understand why that would be the case?

Mike89

I have offended people before with this issue. It just seems that most people dont have a good Jewish education... I for one have gotten the best jewish education in the country for 13 years and now I am dealing with people who are not knowledgeable about this issue

Pseudonym

So you've decided that anyone who disagrees with you must be ignorant. Good job, great way to not offend people!

Yes, most people with a good Jewish education know that Orthodox minyanim discriminate against women. Doesn't mean you should be exempt from justifying your preference for praying that way.

Maybe you should think harder about why a minyan that doesn't include women could be offensive to some people. Until you understand that, you're going to come off as a ******bag when you try to explain what kind of minyan you're looking for.

Canucker

^^
Live and let live is how I respond to this situation.
To the OP: Good luck finding your niche. It may be hard to find an Orthodox minyan (in close proximity), though. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

mythmom

As a woman raised in the Jewish tradition I have to that that this aspect of Judaism forced me out of the religion. The last straw was when I couldn't be a pall-bearer at my fathers funeral and my brother could. I have ehard all about how important Jewish women are, but I don't buy the "separate but equal argument."

I am not judging the OP, but I am judging the ritual he is devoted to, just as I would critique sexist rituals from any other religion as well. There are groups, Reconstructionists for example, who do allow women in a minyan. To me, this is a forward thinking attitude.

If the OP feels comfortable with this ritual, I don't see the harm in explaining to girls that an Orthodox Jewish ritual doesn't allow women to be counted in a minyan.

Mike89

Pseudonym
....

The reason I came to this forum is to see if you knew of a way to not offend anybody.

You guys are not being very helpful, just hyper critical of a delicate situation.

Wow

Chedva

mythmom, you don't have to go as far as Reconstructionist to find a Jewish movement that counts women in the minyan. Conservative (even Conservative leaning towards Orthodox) and Reform also count women. Women can chant Torah, and women can be rabbis.

To the OP, a simple, "I'm sorry, but Orthodox ritual requires 10 men for the prayer service I'm proposing" should be sufficient. If the women want further information, suggest some readings that might explain the rationale better than you can.

If there's a local Chabad, you may want to contact them. They may be willing to hold a minyan at least some days at your school.

Mike89

Chedva,

I plan on going to Chabad if I cant find a minyan. I go to Chabad now at home.

Thanks

Pseudonym

My point was that many people are going to be offended by the basic concept, regardless of how you phrase it. I think that's a pretty helpful insight, and one which you didn't seem to have considered before--you're looking for a way to make a practice many people find discriminatory seem palatable, without really trying to understand the ethical qualms people might have. That's not going to work so well, so my suggestion was to try and see where people who might be offended are coming from, rather than discount any potential disagreement as ignorant.

Yes, I'm being critical. I don't think I'm being overly so. As someone with an excellent Jewish education, I find Orthodox Judaism's insistence on excluding women to be abhorrent and contrary to Jewish ideals.

Some people will be surprised but fine with it if you simply say politely "I appreciate your offer, but Orthodox minyans don't count women." Some people will be horrified and offended. The people in the latter group probably won't be swayed by any way you present it, particularly if you don't feel like doing the hard work of taking a critical look at the tradition.

Mike89

I just think that you were a little strong in your response.

Nothing you have said is new to me. I grew up in a Conservative household. I went to Eastern Europe to see the concentration camps and realized the Orthodox lifestyle is much more fitting for me.

ESD

To the OP, I wish you much luck in your quest for an orthodox minyan. I also grew up conservative and am trying to become more observant. If for some reason you can't make it to Chabad, and can't daven with a minyan, one option you might want to explore is davening by yourself. While this may not be the most welcoming option, it is a viable one. If you do this, you should learn some of the rules involved. There would be certain prayers you can not say (such as the repetition of the Aliyah). Good luck with attending the Chabad House, I've bet to quite a few and have yet to find one that was anything but nice, warm, and very welcoming.

In defense of the OP, I can't help but laugh at all of the people who came to this thread and called the OP and Jewish Orthodoxy every name in the book. I can't believe the hypocrisies in people making the Orthodox community out to be intolerant of other viewpoints; yet those very same accusers have an automatic knee-jerk reaction in which once they see/hear the word "Orthodox" they automatically say sexism and intolerance. What about being tolerant of the Orthodox point of view?

I'll get off my soapbox now...

Mike89

thanks ESD.
Often I daven by myself and no how to do it properly.

Chabad is the most welcoming Jewish center I have ever been to.

Maybe should be less critical and see Chabad (which is Orthodox) and see how tolerant and open they are to ALL branches of Judaism. I follow Chabad Orthodoxy.