1of42

If you believe this, you are truly not very well informed. While a math degree with a low GPA from a crappy school might be pretty useless, demonstrating the kind of incredibly strong quantitative skills a math degree requires makes one very, very attractive to any number of employers. It won't ever replace a degree in the specific subject area (so you're probably not going to be beating out CS majors for jobs in CS, unless it's in theoretical algorithmic development or something), but it is certainly far from useless.

For that matter, philosophy majors (at least from well-recognized schools) are in fact very well-regarded and often have great success both with employment and grad/professional school.

csprof2000

Those statistics are all very misleading, bordering on blatant propaganda.

First off, mathematics appears at the top of every list on that page, although any mathematics major can tell you that the odds of that happening are very low.

In the first chart, a smattering of disciplines were selected to make mathematics look good. If there is a complete list, I would not be surprised to see several disciplines edging out mathematics on that list. In fact, barring some miraculous overabundance of math, philosophy, and economics majors, there *must* exist majors which do better than anything on that list. What are they? Might they not be better options than mathematics?

The next chart is absolutely preposterous. The average salary for English majors with a bachelor's degree is $43,600. That means that the article has it that the average salary of all mathematics majors with a bachelors is $60,037. A quick glance at the BLS tells us that engineering and computer science majors earn closer to $80,000 on average. That's $20,000 dollars more, and would put such majors at about +%90. That's not even counting those who went into law, medicine, business, or started their own companies.

For my next trick, let's see the unabridged list of the top 25 majors by job satisfaction (from the same source they site in the article):

1. Web site manager
2. Actuary
3. Computer Systems Analyst
4. Software Engineer
5. Mathematician
6. Computer Programmer
7. Accountant
8. Industrial Engineer
9. Hospital Administrator
10. Web Developer

Of those, 5 would be best done by CS / IT majors. 2 would be best done my mathematics majors. Next come the business majors, and then comes engineering (industrial). Also, these rankings are by no means "objective": other rankings exist.

Another fun page:
The Ten Hottest Careers - college graduates - fastest growing occupations

As far as the job opportunities:
Mathematical modeling: any job in modeling that a mathematics major could do could be done by a major in the discipline trained in mathematical modeling. Financial companies can hire finance majors who have minors in math, or who have taken a few classes in math. Physics laboratories can hire physicists with experience or who wrote a paper on modeling in the sciences. The point is that telling mathematics majors that they can compete for jobs in other fields with people who have been studying those disciplines is fundamentally flawed; modeling is how mathematics is used in other disciplines, and that's what other majors learn... the only difference is that it is more targeted.

Finance: what about finance majors?

Statistics: fair enough.

Computer science: "Beyond mere proficiency in computer programming" this is the sort of haughtiness that makes math majors hard to employ. They consider other majors to be less rigorous by comparison, and thus assume they are overqualified for positions. That whoever wrote this article sees CS as "mere proficiency in computer programming" is very telling. In reality, a healthy percentage of mathematics majors never do any substantial work with "algorithms", in the modern sense of the word.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The implication is that mathematics is the best major; I believe that mathematics should be presented for what it really is for most people: a pre-professional program for future academics.

rocketman08

Moire,

You seem to be of the mindset that just because you have a bachelors degree from a decent university that you're somehow entitled to a high paying job doing what you want to do. Well in short, the answer is no.

There's a lot more to having a successful career than just a degree and the job market is about making yourself marketable. Maybe you need to get some more schooling... these days a bachelors is almost the norm in many fields so you need a graduate degree to really set yourself apart. Also, just a bachelors in pure math often isn't as appealing to many employers as those that come from other highly quantitative majors but also posses advanced training in other areas.

Obviously it's impossible to know all the details from a forum post, but you do come across as if you have a bit of an 'entitlement mentality' that you somehow 'deserve' to be paid more or have a different job because you have a bachelors in math. That's not how it works. Everyone's career is essentially a 'competition.' Everyone has their own metrics (influence, salary, lifestyle...) for way constitutes 'winning' in that competition. If you don't feel like you're winning then you need to go out and work to make yourself more competitive in whatever areas necessary to get to where you want to be... be that more schooling or something else.

cavalier302

You sound tremendously uncreative. There are plenty of business jobs that hire from all majors, but particularly value quantitative skills in applicants. You have a strong GPA from a strong school. Look into management positions at major fortune 500 firms. Government and defense contractors are a good place to start. Additionally, consulting firms would also be a good place to look. Don't confine yourself to some specific set of careers that you think a math major should go into.

Ayoub

from Burgler: Just go back to school, quit whining about a math degree being useless... hell a bachelors is basically useless. Go into a masters engineering program or something, make something happen for your life instead of sitting around in a job that pays not much more than my summer job in the factories.

yep, that basicly sums it up for you... so listen to burgler and quit whining

xanthom

True, I used exaggerated wording. What I meant was "useless" career-wise compared to the majority of other degrees or degree combinations.

NearL

No major is useless; some just don't happen to be very practical. For the most part, you can get any job with any degree as long as you have a useful skillset and job experience.

Moire

This is a long reply, so for the two or three of you who will read it, here it is:

That's what I suspected all along, but I was convinced otherwise. At any rate, I acknowledge that my naiveness is noone's fault but my own.

At the risk of being accused of having low self-esteem, and receiving a long scolding lecture that will deviate too much from the topic at hand, I'll reveal that I sincerely don't believe that I am law school or medicine school material. That's because I've done a terrible job at practice MCATs and LSATs, especially the reading comprehension parts, which unfortunately are the parts of the exams that you can't really study for and expect to get good at. If you don't do well on the overall exams, your total score will plummet, and you'll have to set your hopes for a tier 2 or tier 3 law or medical school; that is, of course, if you still want to pursue a career in law or medine. I don't care that much about law or medicine, so those options are out of the equation.

Any master's or a master's in the acturial sciences? I know this: a master's degree in the acturial sciences is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to become an actuary; you can do so with just a bachelor's in math and you still need to pass the exams.

I have neither the personality type nor the desire to go into management.

Actually, that's a good question. But my answer is even better: I just majored in math, but I'd say that 40% of the math courses I took in college were pure math and the remainder applied.

I discovered computer science too late in my college career. I squeezed in as many computer science courses as I could, but not enough to complete a major or even a minor.

My favorite subjects were differential equations and discrete math. I was never too fond of pure math.

And that's a very good point. Despite popular belief, not all math majors have genius level IQs, which means that not all of them will get paid to conduct research. Alike most math majors, I don't have a genius level IQ, so research jobs are out of my league.

Exactly, so why is an engineering firm going to hire someone like me, who knows nothing about engineering, to do math, when they can hire an engineer who can do math just as well?

Absolutely, and that's why I feel so cheated. Though I must add, a computer science professor once told me that he liked math majors more than computer science majors, because they were usually more intelligent. That same professor, however, a couple of years later asked me why I was going to bother searching for a programming job, since I was a math major.

Not all math majors are like that. Personally, I always felt that physics was a lot harder than math. And if we are going to talk about literature, then math is the easiest subject on earth.

I made an investment, and that investment didn't pay off, so I'm venting, and I believe, rightly so. I also believe that what happened to me could serve as a cautionary tale to people planning to pursue a college career in math. In a way, in addition to blowing off some steam, I am doing people who want to study math a favor.

Again, I don't have the personality type or the desire to go into management. And let's not even talk about social skills, because math majors are not exactly known for being suave.

When you say "Government," do you mean places like the department of defense? I already thought of that option, but a career advisor discouraged me from pursuing such jobs on the grounds that only very intelligent people work at those places. If that's the impression that person got of my intellect, having seen my presentation skills, in spite of being fully aware of my academic performance, do you think I should bother?

liek0806

Your post seeks pity, and I'm not giving you any. You put your self in the situation of getting paid $16 an hour, because if you were more flexible with career options you'd be getting paid more. You specifically say that you want to work with math, and only math. With that, you're closing yourself in a box.

You make the comparison of someone else going to a 2nd tier college majoring in sociology, and getting paid more than you. If life was so black and white, then a sociology major would ideally want to be a social worker, or something of that sort. Working at a bank would probably be as much of a sacrifice for that person who majored in sociology, as it would be for you to be a teacher( or any of the jobs you listed). However that other person chose that getting paid more was more important to them then putting their degree to use. So you automatically are making a comparison that doesn't even work.

Beyond that, regardless of whatever employment you seek theres a way to market yourself other than i'm good at math and that's it. no one wants to work with someone who is so narrow minded and one dimensional. qualities all employers will seek, and that will pay the most are people who can work as part of a team, who have excellent communication skills(including making presentations), and being hard working.

Math in general is considered to be a better major than most liberal art majors(philosophy, sociology, art history, etc) because of the job prospect , yet you choose to close yourself of anything that math majors are offered or would be good at, so naturally almost anyone who doesn't think the way you do will probably make more money than you regardless of their major or school of attendance.

hye345

Sorry to say this, but if you don't have decent social skills (which is what I got from the above excerpt), then career advancement is going to be rather difficult, regardless of your major.

Moire

You don't have any basis to say that my friend "chose that getting paid more was more important to them than putting their degree to use." My understanding is that he couldn't find a job in the field that he studied, so he settled for a job at a bank. It's actually a valid comparison, because we both ended up doing jobs unrelated to our fields of study.

Your argument is based on a false premise. I already said that I wanted a job doing math that involved programming. So, clearly, my interests go beyond doing math and only math. Now, as for the qualities employers will seek, working as part of a team and being hard working are within my reach. But excellent communication skills? Well, not everyone has those, and if you are a college educated guy, in his mid 20's, who still has trouble with communication skills, it probably means that's the hand you were dealt and something you'll have to learn to live with. I don't want a job where I'll have to speak in front of people, and I won't apologize for this preference.

That's true if you want to advance to management or some type of supervisory role.

csprof2000

While it may be true that students should show initiative in selling themselves for jobs, and be prepared to make compromises, etc., it's also true that the mathematics major has failed to provide its students with the same sort of industry opportunities as some other related disciplines, including:

economics / finance
engineering
computer science

Students in those majors have it much easier than math majors. Is that fair? Well, life isn't fair, but does that mean that people can't complain about it?

csprof2000

Moire, it seems like you are just the sort of case I have been trying to prevent in my long-winded rants about the mathematics major: you have legitimate applied interests, and are obviously a very intelligent human being. It sounds like you were misled and naive, and it's a shame... a real shame, and you should question the system and let others know about what happened to you. My heart goes out to you.

Now, you should try to make the best of a bad situation... have you considered, perhaps, a professional master's in some discipline? Your employer may even help pay for some graduate CS training, and that would be your ticket out of (what sounds like) a dead-end job. Other options for math majors certainly exist. The trick will be finding one that is feasible and appetizing to you.

SkyGirl

Moire,
I have this suggestion for you, but not sure it if it is doable. Since you said,

"I discovered computer science too late in my college career. I squeezed in as many computer science courses as I could, but not enough to complete a major or even a minor."

Can you go back to college and take some additional classes to meet the requirements get that computer science degree as well? Since you say you already took a lot of CS classes, I am guessing you can meet the major's requirements in a year. So you will have 2 majors now!
I hope it works out and you go into computers. Don't give up.

hewey

I agree with SkyGirl. Try and get some more classes in CS and that'll give you a far better platform to venture into programming.

Or, you could join the air force - aeronautical mathematics. My step mother works in aeronautical engineering; there are plenty of programming jobs there but they require some sort of engineering or CS knowledge. I'd say your best bet is to head back to college, at least for some extra classes.