dontno

This is a sentiment seen a lot with people supporting AA, especially those apologists, like you, for poor people (excluding those with drug addict parents who I think have a legitimate excuse for not performing well). I think the idea above is that rich people have less value than poor people, chiefly blacks and hispanics. I don't see why you'd rather have the poor person who doesn't perform well rather than the rich one who was lucky enough to have parents who care about his education. The horror!!! Is there something wrong with being extremely intelligent, having one's parents notice that ability thus sending one to a school where one will be rigorously challenged, subsequently performing well on the SATs and AP courses due (almost entirely) to one's own ability, hard work, and determination?

hifi

the "black" perspective?

in my day the urge to leap over the desks and throttle the instructor would have been to much to bear.

leah377

ignorant people like you hurt my heart..

thirdfloor

I know AA is a flawed system which can sometimes advantage the already advantaged. It's unfortunate, but I'm not ready to give up on it yet. It's a multi-faceted subject, and I've wavered back and forth between the pros and cons, but I support it.

That being said, I understand and respect differing opinions on it. (Well...ones that don't posit the existence of a "black perspective", that is...) Doesn't ceteris paribus apply to lots of other admissions decisions as well? If two students list orchestra as an EC, but one plays cello while the other plays French Horn and the college needs to expand its brass section, does the French Horn player gain an unfair advantage? I know it's not as cut and dry for the race question, but admissions are holistic, and it doesn't seem nonsensical to me to consider the diversity of an applicant's background, community, etc. in a decision.

You know, I do get the argument that it's logical to question a minority student's credentials because of AA. But at the same time, I wonder how frustrating and hurtful it must be to be a minority applicant, with an excellent GPA and SAT and ECs, way above average at their school, when people assume that they got in just because of affirmative action. It's an assumption white students don't have to deal with, and it's an example of white privilege that a white student, even of a lower caliber than the minority applicant, can make it.


edit: In reference to my last post, it's not so much preferring the poorer student as it is preferring real world experience. High GPA and SAT scores are a formidable achivement, that's certain. But in an applicant pool where neither of those can significantly distinguish you (like at an elite school), then life experience can. Recent immigrants, applicants below the poverty line, rural applicants, and applicants who pursue a passion or interest beyond the school environment have the potential to stand out, because of the sacrifices they've made and the committment they've undertaken. I think it's possible for students of any socioeconomic status or race to distinguish themselves like that.

There's certainly nothing wrong with having affluent parents, or with having opportunities to excel in school. But for applicants who have neither of these, it takes more effort to achieve the same standard of work. Strong scores, grades, and extracurriculars are certainly indicators of an excellent applicant. But I think also that other factors come into play. Urban and rural schools are often of a drastically lower quality than suburban schools, and students suffer because of that. Educational quality can vary drastically even district to district.

hifi

i should hope the colored students - colored white - had something to say about the instructor's question.

dontno

Thanks hifi for not perpetuating the angry black man stereotype!

dontno

I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread, but it's devolved from the original topic into an AA debate. The original idea was to criticize elite universities' profuse efforts to increase racial and ethnic diversity. Basically, what these colleges are saying is that black and hispanic students enrich the campus by bringing a different perspective (note it's racial b/c even rich URM are given preferential treatment in admissions).

So my example was to explicitly illustrate how this may play out in a classroom. It was a far fetched example, but it criticizes, through demonstration, the colleges for implying that URMs are all alike and can speak for their race. Thus, thinking that a black person will enrich the campus culture given the fact that he's black is ludicrous, racist, and offensive.

Bourne

Far fetched? Don't be generous.

It's absolutely and utterly stupid. I doubt anyone's ever heard any professor with ANY sense at all, much less an "Ivy League" professor say anything that ridiculous. The fact that it's completely unrealistic invalidates it.

Dontno? Do you read what you type before you post it?

Do you really think that the perspective of Bolivians will be represented at a school with no Bolivians? Will there be any Bolivian culture? Any significant/relevant Bolivian culture?

It's one thing to think something is useless - diversity, but it's something completely different to disregard it completely. If you don't think diversity is necessary -- that's your own opinion. If you think certain things don't contribute to diversity? You're just...

Or the angry at my professor for saying something stupid? Or the we don't even know if he's black or white so this comment makes no sense? Or the I should just stop posting now before an angry white/black/asian man comes along and kicks my ass?

fabrizio

The only thing that contributes to diversity is the individual. Every individual on this planet is a unique being. That’s all matters.

I ask you to remember what Justice Powell wrote in Bakke, “Preferring members of any one group for no reason other than race or ethnic origin is discrimination for its own sake.”

ANCooky

Why does it matter what color you are? Racism won't go away until people stop recognizing race as the main characteristic they notice in a person. By constantly reminding inferring to the general population that some people need a boost will only continue the thinking that these people are degenerates who aren't on the same level. AA is simply reinforcing racist beliefs. Are all blacks poor and receiving bad educations? No. Are all whites rich and receiving quality educations? No.

I believe MLK Jr. put my argument very poignantly into a sentence, a line which singlehandedly disproves many pro-AA arguments: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Bourne

If you agree that diversity is important, tell me, what measures would you then use to implement it?

Edit.

Ok. Let me ask you. Why can't George Bush understand your problems?

Partly because he's not like you. Hopefully. And partly because he just doesn't care.

And now I ask you, if we have a region of people, and we need their problems/opinions to be voiced -- would it not be within our best interest to have a certain number of these people selected to represent themselves?

I'm not asking you to judge based on race. I'm asking you to admit that diversity is a necessity.

fabrizio

Diversity does not need to be “implemented.” Segregation was outlawed over half a century ago. Thanks to the Supreme Court, diversity today exists everywhere. Thus, no measure is necessary because implementation itself is unnecessary.

BeKindRewind

Don't you get it!? To these people, if the person is angry at a racially insensitive question, he must be an angry black man!

arachnophobia12

Yes, fabrizio, no one "deserves" a college education-it's a privilege, not a right.

Bourne

Ok? Then don't take anyone from rural counties where AP's aren't offered. Don't take people from poor areas where the opportunities are limited. Let's just take dozens of homogenous people from places where they have unlimited opportunities/money to do whatever they wish.

Let's just continue the cycle of the elite.

Diversity is included in everything. Even in academics.

Even the way we've "diversified" academic qualifications by turning to holistic review.