Greybeard

I usually avoid discussions on this sort of topic, but will note that I read a book in the 1970s by Ernest Van Den Haag claiming that the median IQ for Ashkenazis was about one standard deviation (15 or 16 points, depending on how the particular test is scaled) higher than the median score for the general population. He speculated that this may have been caused by the tendency of bright but poor Catholic boys to enter the priesthood, and be subject to vows of celibacy, in contrast with bright but poor Jewish boys, who were encouraged to become rabbis, and have large families.

My own suspision is that for a variety of historical reasons, that Ashakenazis were more likely than the average European to live in urban environments. A lot of professions that lead to more opportunities to accumulate wealth are best practiced in cities. Periodic pogroms that poorer, more vulnerable members of the community were less likely to survive may have also played a role here. The absence of a religious prohibition on charging interest probably led to higher Jewish representation in financial occupations; restrictions on land ownership probably led to lower Jewish representation in agricultural occupations. The correlation between IQ score and having parents who are urban professionals is no doubt higher than the correlation between IQ and membership in any ethnic group.

None of the academics who study IQ would agree with the assertion that "IQ levels have nothing to do with nurture".

Rutgers89

I think it goes past that though, which a lot of studies are starting to find... it might be genetics, something to do with the human genome. I should have looked that over again, because I meant to say that "nature" has a huge influence on IQ, not so much that nurture doesn't.

Nature vs Nurture in Intelligence

Newman91

No way Marquette is 10 percent jewish, its a catholic school.

Enrollment:
Undergraduate: 8,048
Graduate: 3,500
Jewish Enrollment:
Undergraduate: 120
Graduate: 100

Accoring to hillel

tk21769

I'm surprised that Chicago is only 16%. The home of the Latke-Hamantash Debate has a lower number than Georgetown?

andyyy

The Jewish Contribution to World Civilization

Interestingly, many of the top physicists in the early 20th century were not Jewish by religion, but had Jewish lineage (i.e., Jewish parents or grandparents who converted away from the Jewish faith). Examples include Bohr and Heisenberg.

It's nature AND nurture.

JOKER23

Andyyy i have to disagree, "Jewish people" (what ever that means) are smarter not because they are born that way (that would be racist) but because in jewish culture there is a lot of emphasis on knowledge. This was acquired because jewish people in Europe were not allowed to own land, therefore jewish people had to find other ways to make a living. Jewish people found a niche in the service sector, doctors, lawyers, and bankers are some examples of careers that jewish people took. This is why a lot of jewish people are in banking. When jewish people came to America (I mean the ones that came around 1900-1920) they used that thrist for knowledge to go up in life, in fact jewish people at that time did not find to much importance in beuaty (my friends grandmom told me that.) Because jewish people teach their children the importance of academics at such a young age (like asian people) the brain of the child is able to grow exponentially. This is crucial because most of the connections the brain makes are made at an early age (0-15.) Human beings are like dogs, we can control how we evolve in a short amount of time (for example I can change anything in a dog in about 3 generations, not very long.) So it is stupid to think that anyone race has a mental advantage over another. I saw an experiment ones that tried to find the corralation of early training on a child, there were two groups, a group of black children which would be taught at and early age and one that would not (also black, they were black because black people on average have lower IQs). The group that was taught had an average IQ of 120 after 20 years, that is a standard deviation of 1.33.

Ignorance is what causes all the problems in the world.

andyyy

I do believe that nurture plays a much greater role than nature in intelligence. However, nature still plays a role.

"Intuitive intelligence" does exist. Take, for example, Srinivasa Ramanujan. Growing up in rural South India, he somehow developed exceptional talent in mathematics. No one pushed him to study get into IIT or study for JEE's - he was in a situation where everyone around him were farmers and agriculturalists. He was simply born a genius.

I know that this is very controversial, but this is somewhat evident in mathematics classes. Say you put some students, all with the same amount of preparation, together in one class. Some of them are going to get ahead because they have more "intellectual horsepower." If everyone puts in the same effort, some are simply going to get ahead much farther.

Jewish people are not smarter simply because they are Jewish. I have had many Jewish friends - both Ashkenezi and Sephardic - throughout my life, and they come from all sorts of economic backgrounds and are all really diverse. However, there are a significant number of exceptionally gifted Jewish people among the Jewish population. There is a higher TENDENCY (i.e., statistic) for them to be more gifted.

Same with Asians. There are tons of average Asians out there. However, there also quite A LOT of exceptionally gifted Asians as well. Many of the "average" Asians were exposed to the same environment and indoctrination, but some just shine more than others. I would say that culture is like the crank that starts up the innate intelligence and intuition engine.

So what do I conclude when I meet a Jewish math genius? His amazing intelligence does not derive simply from his being Jewish. It's because he's in the Ashkenazi Jewish population which TENDS to have more bright intellectuals. (Think of a bell curve.) Same goes for Taiwanese people and Indian Brahmins.

I agree that it can often be hard to define "Jewish." "Mihu yehudi" has been one of the greatest Israeli questions. However, when you look at things GENERALLY, you will notice that the Jewish population does indeed have more exceptional contributors to society, in terms of proportion. The majority of Jewish people out there would be "average," but the unusually high proportion of bright Jewish (or from another population) intellectuals who exist alongside their fellow "average" friends cannot be explained only by cultural factors.

An academically-centered culture can produce many bright intellectuals. However, the high number of EXCEPTIONAL intellectuals among certain populations (note "populations," not "race"), can only be explained by nature, not nurture. Of course we should take great care not to attribute all this to race, but rather a certain population (people within a roughly-defined gene pool).

Bottom line: nurture AND nature are both necessary to make a genius.

JOKER23

Lol that was PURE racism. My grandparents from my mom side are jewish but she turned christian ones she got to Colombia, my IQ is 130, does that mean that im "smarter" because im "jewish"? Its is true that there are people out there that are naturally smarter but it has nothing to do with ethnicity, there are 6.7 billion people in this earth therefore there has to be some abnormalities. Do you know why every where jewish people go they get persecuted? because of this, they go somewhere and start talking about how they are the "chosen" people.

Racism goes both ways

rjkofnovi

^^^Yeah I just read a nice racist post. You were clueless when you brought up the "chosen people" remark. I suggest you google it and learn what it really means. Btw, since your mom and grandparents were jewish, it might be one of the reasons why your IQ is 130. This would go to reinforce the thoughts of andyy.

andyyy

You might want to read my post above more carefully. I completely agree with JOKER23 when he said: "my IQ is 130, does that mean that im "smarter" because im "jewish"? Its is true that there are people out there that are naturally smarter but it has nothing to do with ethnicity"


What I wrote above:
"So what do I conclude when I meet a Jewish math genius? His amazing intelligence DOES NOT derive from his being Jewish. It's because he's in the Ashkenazi Jewish population which TENDS to have more bright intellectuals. (Think of a bell curve.) Same goes for Taiwanese people and Indian Brahmins."

ALSO:
"An academically-centered culture can produce many bright intellectuals. However, the high number of EXCEPTIONAL intellectuals among certain populations (NOTE "populations," NOT "race"), can only be explained by nature, not nurture. Of course we should take great care not to attribute all this to race, but rather a certain population (people within a roughly-defined gene pool)."

FURTHERMORE:
"Same with Asians. There are tons of average Asians out there. However, there also quite A LOT of exceptionally gifted Asians as well. Many of the "average" Asians were exposed to the same environment and indoctrination, but some just shine more than others. I would say that culture is like the crank that starts up the innate intelligence and intuition engine."


What I'm saying is that certain populations tend to have greater proportions of naturally smart individuals. Of course those populations have plenty of average individuals as well.



Anyways, this topic belongs in another forum, not CC. We can debate about this forever and ever, but my final word is that a lot of Jewish Americans have really been a blessing to American society. Their amazing culture, achievements, hard work, and enthusiasm are undeniably great gifts to America. Universities would certainly benefit from their diversity, their new ways of thinking, and most of all their love for learning. Same goes for Chinese and Indian students, and of course, bright students from every single ethnicity on the planet!

JOKER23

agreed (about jewish people contributing to this country), but thinking that jewish people are smarter because of nature is racist. rjkofnovi how are my comments racist? Thinking that I, you, or a "jew" is smarter because you were born that way IS WHAT'S RACIST.

collegebound41

^^LOL i've agreed with that too. some idiot i know(hes jewish btw) said that jews( whatever the idea that qualifies some1 as jewish is) were the first people( NOT CAVEMEN!!!) on earth and therefore the smartest

collegehelp

I think intelligence has been determined to be at least 50% due to genetics based on studies of identical twins (which are the same genetically). The rest is due to strong, nurturant families. Some cultures and religions tend to foster close-knit families. It is both nature and nurture, but nature is a big part of it.

rjkofnovi

"Do you know why every where jewish people go they get persecuted? because of this, they go somewhere and start talking about how they are the "chosen" people."

It's your comment after the fact that I found offensive. If its wasn't racist, it's projecting a negative stereotype. It's implying that in your mind all jews think they are better than everyone else and therefore deserve the bad things that happen to them. If I said, "Do you know why everywhere blacks, asians, mexicans etc. go........." You fill in the blanks.

JOKER23

Well im sorry if you got offended, no really I am, it wasn't meant to be taken on todays perspective. I meant to say that before jewish people were persecuted because they were very hostile towards other religions (there are many exceptions, like jews in morocco.) Today though I have to say that most people that would be considered jews are very open, but there are a few that aren't and in fact are preety ignorant (not to say that I base this on all jews.) When I read this thread though I see it has IGNORANT writen all over it, saying that someone is more likely to be better because they are born a certain way is racist. When did I say I think bad things should happen on jews?