UChicago vs. Williams vs. Swarthmore vs. Cornell vs. Bowdoin

wingedc · 04-01-2012, 05:56 PM

Hi, I was recently admitted to UChicago, Williams, Swarthmore, Cornell (Arts and Sciences), and Bowdoin (and some safeties).

I havent heard back from all the schools about financial aid yet, which may help me make the decision.

I'm looking for a school where the professors care about the students and are willing to help them and let them do research with them. Id prefer small classes to large classes with TAs teaching. My main interest academically is in math and science (more towards the chemistry/physics half than biology) and possibly economics.

I'm a pretty competitive runner and was recruited to Williams and Swarthmore. Im good enough to walk on D1, so I should be able to run at any of these schools. I want to make sure wherever I go supports student athletes and has nice places to run. At the same time, I'm not a big fan of the jock culture that good sports sometimes results in. I don't drink, and don't want to be in a place where the only social activity is drinking (its OK if there is some, because that is inevitable, but I dont want to be socially crippled by not drinking). This would seem to point to less isolated schools like UChicago and Swarthmore, but I am also very outdoorsy. While I like the city, I also really like to hike, ice climb, camp etc (I'm not like a recreational hiker, I'm pretty into outdoor activities), which would seem to point to Cornell and Williams.

I want an intellectual, quirky atmosphere (kind of like Swarthmore and UChicago's) where kids love their studies and like to joke around about them. I also like to study hard, but I am a little intimidated by what Ive heard about grade deflation at UChicago, Cornell, and Swarthmore.

My final concern is the prestige of the schools. I know most people say that you shouldnt pay attention to the name of a school when choosing where you want to go. I followed this rule when I was making my list of schools to apply to, but now that I have a list of schools that I know I would be happy at for various reasons, I want to make sure the name of the school lands me a good job coming out of undergrad (I may go to grad school part time while I work, or go full time based on my financial situation). This goes back to my concern about the difficulty of the academics at Swat, Chicago, and Cornell because I am not sure whether employers and grad schools will prefer a lower GPA from one of those schools to a higher GPA somewhere else. I realize most of my schools are pretty difficult academically and Williams and Bowdoin will be difficult as well, but I have heard they are not as bad as the other schools.

Any suggestions/advice? Right now I think I am leaning towards Williams/UChicago.

Edit: I was also waitlisted at Amherst, which could be an option (the coach may be able to get me in off the wait-list if I decide I want to go there).

momrath · 04-01-2012, 09:54 PM

winged, Great choices! My son attended Williams and is now in graduate school at Cornell. He was drawn to the rural setting and natural beauty of both and took advantage of the outdoorsy activities available.

He also considered Swarthmore, but felt that Williams was more in line with his personality. He didn't visit to Bowdoin but probably should have.

My son wasn't a team athlete but many of his friends were -- including runners. Many were light or non-drinkers. There's an emphasis on sports and fitness, and, really lots of physical activity, but it's too intellectual to be considered a jock culture.

Excellent physics/chemistry and economics. Excellent career and graduate school counseling. Very active alumni/ae network.

Williams students are bright, energetic, confident and multi-faceted. No shortage of quirkiness and intellectual curiosity. They seem to maintain a good balance between the [formidable] academics and whatever else they're interested in. It's a happy and upbeat environment.

Williams is well known to graduate school admissions and people who make hiring decisions. It is definitely not "easier" than Chicago, Swarthmore or Cornell, but balance of life is important.

Ephman · 04-02-2012, 11:04 AM

Agreed with momrath, great choices! Having attended Williams and UChicago (the latter for grad school), and having visited friends at Swarthmore, I have some pretty good insight into your list. You will certainly get a great education at any of those schools, and assuming financial aid is roughly comparable, I'd, if at all possible, visit and meet as many students at each as possible to get a sense of where you feel most comfortable.

I wouldn't really worry about grade inflation / deflation in terms of making your decision, these are five of the most rigorous undergrad educations anywhere, and employers and grad schools know that, and also tend to understand the relative grading scales at each school. I also think the differences are pretty minor, as schools tend to move towards the mean in this regard over time. I think, for example, despite Swarthmore's rep, the average GPA is only between one and three tenths of a point lower than at Williams, at least last I haerd.

Really, UChicago and Cornell are SO different from the three liberal arts schools, I think you should start by, if possible, narrowing it down to whether you want a big university setting or a small, initimate liberal arts school. Based on your description of your academic critiera, I'd say Swarthmore, Bowdoin, and Williams are more likely to be up your alley than UChicago or, in particular, Cornell.

I will say that UChicago, Swarthmore, and, based on things I've heard, Cornell all had an intensity that I personally found a bit off-putting, and I personally prefer the balance between academic / intellectual life and nature/fun/laid back personality found at Williams and Bowdoin. IN terms of prestige, overall, they are all essentially even, or certainly close enough that it should not factor in your decision.

Williams has the advantage of a tremendous cross country program -- both men's and women's teams feature great coaching, ENORMOUS rosters, and are perennial national title contenders -- and some REALLY spectacular running trails adjacent to campus. So that is definitely a check for Williams. Swarthmore has a beuatiful campus but less beautiful surroundings than Williams. UChicago is not exactly a runner's paradise. There is the lake shore not too far from campus, and that is beautiful, but it might get repetitive after awhile, but the campus itself is a bit on the bleak side most of the year, except in early fall and late spring, and isn't all that conducive to long runs.

Academically, Williams could not be a more perfect fit, as Econ, Math, Chem and Physics are all among the strongest academic programs on campus. Williams has an unusually strong math/physics program for a liberal arts school, in particular.

The natural setting and unmatched outdoors opportunities are a big plus as well. You certainly would not be socially crippled by not drinking, but drinking most likely plays a bigger role in social life at Williams/Bowdoin than it does at Swarthmore/UChicago. Williams is more intellectual / quirky than you would think based on its outward appearance, but in you want a school that has a higher quirky/intellectual/outright strange quotient, UChicago is hard to top in that regard.

To me, it sounds like both Williams and Swarthmore would be close to ideal for you, and if at all possible, I'd try to visit both while students are on campus prior to deciding. Chicago and Williams are really at the opposite end of the spectrum among elite schools, in many ways, so it surprises me that you would exclude Swarthmore. I realize Chicago is proximate to the city, but there is actually no more to do in Hyde Park (where the University is located), than there is in Williamstown, and getting to downtown Chicago is enough of a pain that you probably won't do it more than a few times per month. It's great to have that option, don't get me wrong, but you will be so busy between academics, running, other activities, and just spending time with friends, that I find the advantages of proximity to a city are less than you might think (same goes for Swarthmore, Philly is not as good a city but is easier to get to from campus). Totally different situation for a school like NYU, where the city is at your doorstep. And check a campus calendar at Williams, there are always interesting speakers, music events, sporting events, theater events, cultural events, art events, etc. happening on or adjacent to campus, even if you don't have any semblance of urban nightlife anywhere in the viscinity.

wingedc · 04-03-2012, 04:43 AM

Thank you so much ephman and momrath, these posts are really helpful. Iv kind of excluded swarthmore because they gave me very little financial aid, (<1k) while other schools like haverford and bates have given me around 30k in grants. Im hoping williams will give me more financial aid, which would make the decision between the two easier.

I think I am leaning towards Williams at the moment. I think a small LAC may have the atmosphere I am looking for. My concern is research. Will there be opportunities for research at Williams? I think Cornell might actually be a good fit, since the Arts and Sciences school at Cornell is more like a liberal arts college, it is just situated in the middle of a large research university.

Im also thinking that a school like UChicago might offer more opportunities for summer internships/jobs in the city? I also would like to know which school would be best for getting me a job out of undergrad (I plan on going to grad school, but I may work a couple years first, or maybe go to school part time).

If Williams compares with Cornell/Uchicago in terms of research and job opportunities, I think my decision is basically made, although I'll probably visit everywhere to make sure.

Also, anyone think the waitlist at Amherst is worth it?

Thoughts?

momrath · 04-03-2012, 06:32 AM

My son is a humanities kid, not science, but my understanding is that Williams is strong on research opportunities. My son and all of his friends found work in their fields after graduation. The career counseling office was helpful and the alumni/ae network supportive.

I think you may get more specific answers if you post your question on the Williams board.

Ephman · 04-03-2012, 07:21 AM

I can't speak for Cornell and UChicago, but you certainly have nothing to fear in terms of both jobs and research opportunities for during and after Williams. The only advantage a place like UChicago might have, due to proximity to the city, is if you want to have more options for an off-campus job during the school year, but frankly, as a science major and potential varsity athlete who presumably wants to have a social life as well, you probably won't have time for that, anyway. Williams excels in the areas you mention: tremendous undergrad research opportunities, tremendous job/grad school placement in research-oriented fields (and also tremendous support for post-grad fellowships), and a ton of paid summer research opportunities for undergrads. And of course, you aren't competing with grad students for plum research opportunities and summer campus jobs.

A few links of interests:

Admissions – Williams College| Science and Mathematics Research
(I think it's particularly telling that this is one of only six "Williams differences" highlighted by admissions).

Chemistry 2011 | Science Center

(this is just one department but gives a good sense. Scroll down to the end to see post-grad plans for last year's graduating class, particularly impressive in one of the worst job climates for college grad we've seen in a long time)

Spotlight on Student Research | Williams College

James M. Gentile: Growing Scientists at America's Top Liberal Arts Colleges

wingedc · 04-07-2012, 11:48 PM

Thanks, those links are super helpful. I'm leaning towards Williams right now. Anyone want to argue for any of the other schools?

swattiechick · 04-08-2012, 12:17 AM

I can tell you that I don't experience grade deflation at Swarthmore (at least I don't think I do). This is my second semester and the lowest grade I've received on any paper is a B and as a course grade a B+. It's a lot of work, but I think high grades are certainly attainable. I'm really, really social and make time for fun (as do all of my friends) so it's not as though I'm a total grind. Classwork is definitely manageable.

I feel like you'd REALLY enjoy the social scene at Swarthmore. 50% of the campus drinks and 50% doesn't. There's no pressure to drink at all. I go out almost every weekend and drink about 1/3 of the nights. I still go parties, pregame, and have as much fun as everyone else but just don't feel like drinking. It's not unusual and it's not looked down on. However you want to have fun is totally acceptable. That said, there are far more things to do on weekends besides party. I've really enjoyed going into Philly for dinners or performances. There are also always other events on campus on weekends like movies every Friday and Saturday night, dry parties (which are just like food, hangout parties), religious events, and chill time. I think the only type of person who wouldn't enjoy the social scene would be really hardcore tailgaters/frat boys. Though maybe even they find their place on campus.

In terms of the outdoorsiness, there is a significant contingent of people who seem to share interests with you. There is an outdoors club, earth lust, mountain justice, good food project, orienteering, and probably a lot more. In addition, we have the Crum woods which is like 400 acres of beautiful, beautiful woods. I love to walk the trails in the nice weather and in the snow.

If you're worried about grad school, don't be. Swat is the #3 producer of PhDs, second only to CalTech and Harvey Mudd. Employment, I feel you will have similar prospects at every school. Network hard. If you go to Swarthmore, get an internship with an alum (Swat fully funds internships) and make connections. They pay off really well in the future.

Don't get me wrong, all of these schools are awesome. You are really lucky to have all of these choices. I just know most about Swarthmore since I go there. Let me know if you have any questions. Feel free to PM me!

wingedc · 04-08-2012, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the information. As of now, the biggest issue with Swarthmore is that they gave me no financial aid, while Williams gave me 20k a year. From the pictures I've seen, Swarthmore's campus is beautiful. I am going to visit UChicago and Swat soon to see what I think of them.

Do you know how Swarthmore compares to Williams in terms of getting a job straight out of undergrad? I was talking to someone who was telling me Williams has more companies recruiting from them but I'm not sure how much truth that has to it. I'm guessing that both schools are somewhat the same in terms of getting into Grad schools.

Anyone want to argue for UChicago or Cornell?

Also, I guess there will be more opportunities to work with professors on research at Swat and Williams because they are more focused on undergrads, but will the research be at the same level as research going on at Cornell or UChicago?

swattiechick · 04-08-2012, 08:09 PM

Sorry, as much as I love Swat, go for Williams if it's an 80k savings.

wingedc · 04-08-2012, 10:26 PM

Well, I mean this is just for one year, and my dad has an unstable job. If my financial situation changes, the financial aid may be different next year, maybe swat will give more and williams less. I dont think the financial aid is the same every year. Also, Haverford gave me 30k a year in grants, which may add it to my list

fliqer · 04-09-2012, 01:03 AM

At 40K savings from Williams - Haverford is certainly worth considering!

wingedc · 04-11-2012, 06:55 PM

yeah, ill have to visit haverford and see how i like it. Im visiting chicago tomorrow, so we will see how it feels for me.

wingedc · 04-15-2012, 07:38 PM

One of the things i noticed at Chicago was that they had really good job/internship placement, research opportunities, and placement into grad schools, expecially for economics/finance/wallstreet. Im not sure I want to go into finance, but I was wondering, if I did, if Cornell and Williams compared to UChicago in that regard?

slipper1234 · 04-16-2012, 02:24 AM

Williams does extraordinarily well at graduate placement. In no way would it be inferior to Chicago, I'd argue that the data shows it places better. As for internships/ jobs I don't see any difference as well. Both are solid feeders to Wall Street and into finance, again I'd argue Williams might even have the edge.