xiggi

Warbler, I don't think I was talking about Chicago and Dartmouth, or schools with admission rates well-below 20 percent. I thought I was pretty clear that I was talking about Michigan. Feel free to add schools such as UT-Austin or Wisconsin in the mix.

As far as the terms used in admissions, many like to play games of semantics. I like to keep it simple, as it really makes little difference in the end. Only the admission matters!

As far as twists and turns, please consider that a competitive applicant in Texas could consider UT-Austin his or her safety, but would have to consider Michigan a reach? Are the schools THAT different?

beyphy

I agree with this. Berkeley does poor on class size and maybe greek scene; Harvard does poorly on weather and maybe that startup culture present in Silicon Valley.

That's surprising

I think Warblersrule is being genuine. There are several boosters on this board, Phantasmagoric (including both of us,) but Warblersrule (at east in my experience) isn't one of them. It's best not to confuse warblersrule with goldenboy

As far as UCLA is concerned, it probably isn't a good option. No undergrad B-school (although i heard biz-econ w/ accounting minors do fairly well)

No "seasons" (in the traditional sense of the word) for UCLA (or Stanford) imo.

Greek scene is present, but certainly not dominant.

It does do fairly well in sports (as does USC), and start-up culture is increasing quickly (google "silicon beach")

Ultimately i'd still recommend Harvard or Berkeley. The latter might be the best overall choice, however, since the former is much more competitive. It might also not hurt to add USC to the list due to sports, greek scene, undergrad b-school, and silicon beach proximity.

barrk123

@Xiggi if someone from Texas is in the top 8% of their class they get an Auto Admit into UT-Austin

phantasmagoric

beyphy, I did not call him a booster (a term I reserve for a very specific kind of poster, and I wouldn't consider you or him a booster, either), but said "to boost," as in the general "to prop up" or "speak well of." Most alums on this board are guilty of the latter, but not the former (in my use of the term).

warblersrule, I should have worded that differently; my response was based on your criticism of a discussion I see as highly relevant to the OP's question. But you seemed to target only my comments about Duke, rather than the many other schools I commented on, so I assumed there was a reason for that.

UCBChemEGrad

Beyphy, I didn't get the impression Stanford has strong Greek scene.

beyphy

^ i was trying to tailor my post to the OP's general interests UCB, rather than trying to make the perfect comparison with Stanford (which others have tried, and failed, to do, it seems.)

phantasmagoric

^ agreed - not all the OP's criteria can be met equally (relative to Stanford's 'atmosphere'), so some tradeoffs are necessary.

Re: the Greek scene, it's hard to say. Over the past 2-3 years, the proportion of students who joined a fraternity or sorority has doubled (from 13% to 26%), according to the CDS. But that might be a difference in reporting, e.g. perhaps they're now including those who are part of coed "fraternities" (like the business-focused AKPsi). On the other hand, new fraternities/sororities have been introduced to the campus recently. Regardless, the # Greek houses has remained the same, and that tends to be more imporant in deciding the prominence of the Greek system. I don't think it's nearly at the level of Duke, MIT, Vanderbilt, USC, etc.

The common sentiment on Stanford's Greek scene is that it has a very noticeable presence, but is still avoidable without much effort.

drax12

Wait, I'm confused. To which school are we comparing? Stanford? Since when does Stanford have an undergrad b-school? Granted, Harvard and Stanford don't need undergrad vocations/trades. The higher level u's in the country generally don't. This is the model to which UCLA subscribes, albeit probably wrongly. The U needs undergrad business; bring it back. Granted, there are UCLA grads in chem, engineering, the sciences in general, and even some of the non-econ social sciences that do well in quantitative fields, leaving the humanities majors to sales/marketing and pub relations. But it doesn't match the success, obviously, of Harvard or Stanford. You'll see a Harvard grad in Lit deep into quant on Wall Street. Harvard tends to taunt us with this: "See my in French degree?" "Wall Street, baby..."

beyphy

Ah my mistake. I don't generally keep up with business schools and only know of a few top ones that have undergraduate programs -- USC, Berkeley, Michigan, Penn, NYU, etc. My mistake, I assumed (wrongly) that all (or most) of the top programs had them.

RM1212

So I just typed this really long post, and it disappeared.
But anyways, thanks for all the responses! It's all quite helpful.
When I said atmosphere, I was referring to the culture more so than the weather, where startups are common and the university is invested in them, too. The weather in which I'm interested probably doesn't match Stanford's; I'm from New England where we get snow, often. So I am looking for snow, ideally, and a nice blend of the four seasons.
But like someone noted, I'm just an average candidate for schools like Cornell---3.94/2240. I said I was interested in Greek life. It doesn't have to have a huge presence on campus, but I do want to join a fraternity.
So I want some matches/safeties for my list that are similar to my first choice, Cornell.

Here's my list of definites:
Cornell, CMU, UMich, Northwestern, UMass
Also considering (so far):
Vandy, Duke

coolweather

MIT Greek percentage is more than 40%.

What percentage of MIT students participate in Greek life? | ChaCha

beyphy

This would bring Berkeley, Caltech, and Stanford to mind.

This would rule all three out lol.

Most top schools have research programs, along with students who'd be interested in startups. Blizzard, for example, was started at UCLA for example by 3 alumni; Imgur was started at tOSU. Yet, i doubt either university was actively invested in it. That's something you'd find near Silicon Valley, and perhaps other top schools (Harvard, MIT, Princeton, etc.)

As i stated above, although Silicon Valley's much more established, due to it being so new, you might have a much easier time, and more plentiful opportunities, over at Silicon Beach for actively being part of a start up. Google's already here, and i expect it won't be long for the others to follow suit.

As per your request, matches/safeties:

UCLA, USC, Berkeley. This is more conjecture (since i'm not as familiar with the universities) but maybe UIUC and Georgia tech?

pennUltiMate

Definitely Texas.

goldenboy8784

Again, you are blowing the differences between Duke and Stanford out of proportion.

Weather

Durham vs Palo Alto

Average High Temperature in Fahrenheit by Year
Durham: 75.2 degrees
Palo Alto: 69.3 degrees

Durham vs Palo Alto

Average Low Temperature in Fahrenheit by Year
Durham: 46.8 degrees
Palo Alto: 46.7 degrees

Duke does get 10 more inches of precipitation per year on average and has much hotter summers (about 20 degrees on average) than Stanford but most college students will be off campus during the summers so the latter point is moot. With regards to the former, some students may prefer more rain so this difference could swing the tables either way depending on what a particular student wants.

Sports

Duke's major weaknesses in athletics in comparison to places like Stanford and USC rest largely in Track & Field and Swimming which are overrepresented in events like the Olympics and even the Director's Cup. As far as major team sports, Football is the only one that Duke is "weak" in and lets not forget that Stanford has been largely mediocre in football for almost the entire last decade. Its record until recently wasn't meaningfully better than Duke's.

Duke has very strong Lacrosse, Golf, Tennis, Soccer, and Basketball programs (Men's and Women's). Its Track & Field, Swimming, Wrestling, and Baseball programs could use some work but Stanford isn't a standout in the latter two sports either.

Unlike most other schools, Duke doesn't participate at the Division 1 level in Men's Volleyball, Water Polo, Men's Rowing, and Men's Ice Hockey.

At any rate, the only sports that meaningfully impact an undergraduate spectator's experience is Men's Football and Men's Basketball, the latter of which Duke is an undisputed top 5 program.

Academics

Almost all of Duke's academic programs are ranked within the top 30 so it really doesn't have any weaknesses in this area. Stanford is stronger in most but Duke isn't weak enough in any area to claim that it has "weak academics".

Harvard and Berkeley are nothing like Stanford with the latter being about 3x times larger and being public school while the former has a vastly different climate and athletic culture. Duke and Vanderbilt are perhaps the closest overall to Stanford but the OP will most likely not be able to get into any of these schools.

beyphy

The Harvard(s) of the South aren't very similar to the Harvard of the West

Neither Duke nor Vanderbilt is renown for its startup culture (Something that's probably more common at Berkeley and Harvard.) Engineering was also emphasized in the OP. Duke is mediocre in engineering, whereas Berkeley's is world class. While Harvard's engineering program isn't amazing, MIT is basically just up the street. No other schools in Duke's triangle have a comparable engineering program.

And since engineering was mentioned, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the OP would be interested in a tech start up. There are certain schools that are very good for that (Stanford, Berkeley, Michigan, etc.) but Duke probably isn't one of them.

Your weather comparison is also laughable since it doesn't take into account things like humidity. How anyone can reasonably think that two universities which are on opposite sides of the country can have similar weather is beyond me.

Yes, yes, Duke and Vanderbilt are similar to Stanford; And UCSF is Berkeley's medical school. If you say anything long enough, i'm sure some people will believe you