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Data comparing liberal arts colleges in the sciences

13

Replies to: Data comparing liberal arts colleges in the sciences

  • dadof1dadof1 Registered User Posts: 688 Member
    Table of major awards
    I don't see any leg lamps listed.
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    @Cazwax I crunched in R. However these tables didn't require much crunching. The work was getting the data. In any case, you can download my raw data and R code here

    The data
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31164092/College_Data/Table of Oberlin50 Awards/Oberlin_Group_STEM_Scholars.csv

    The R code
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31164092/College_Data/Table of Oberlin50 Awards/make_oberlin_scholars_tables.R
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    More crunching of the Baccalaureate origins of PhD 2004-2014 data. See previous posts on where this comes from. This time I downloaded the detail on the PhD field of study so I could break out CS vs Math. The numbers are a little different than before because I aggregated the subfields a little differently than NSF did in their aggregation. I added a bunch more small liberal arts colleges. In particular, Allegheny College was not in the 'Oberlin Group' and many of their alums go on to get PhDs in the hard sciences.

    total = total of columns 1 to 6
    size is enrollment 2015-2016 from USNews

    First half of table
    GeoSci_LifeSci__Chem_Physics____CS___Math___total_ST_size_name
    ____88____181_____55_____31_____21_____30____406_MN_2057_Carleton
    ____12_____57_____33_____68_____54_____66____290_CA_804_Harvey Mudd
    ____30____160_____20_____14______8_____29____261_OH_2961_Oberlin
    ____31____114_____26_____31_____15_____36____253_MA_2045_Williams
    _____9____144_____17_____33_____22_____25____250_PA_1542_Swarthmore
    _____5____125_____33_____38______7_____25____233_OR_2100_Reed
    _____8____126_____37_____12______3_____36____222_MN_3034_St. Olaf
    ____23____124_____23______9______3_____28____210_CA_1650_Pomona
    _____7____131_____30_____17______9_____13____207_IA_1734_Grinnell
    ____22____128_____16_____14______7_____11____198_CT_2928_Wesleyan Univ
    ____23____121_____22______7_____11_____12____196_MA_2563_Smith
    _____7____123_____45______7______4______6____192_PA_2023_Allegheny
    ____29____103_____15_____14______8______9____178_NY_2875_Colgate Univ
    _____8____103_____24_____17_____10_____15____177_PA_1194_Haverford
    ____21_____94______9_____20_____15_____16____175_MA_1792_Amherst
    ____13____100_____20_____18_____10_____13____174_PA_3565_Bucknell Univ
    ____13____119_____17______8______6______9____172_MA_2189_Mount Holyoke
    _____7____109_____19_____10______8_____11____164_MA_2323_Wellesley
    ____23_____74_____26______9_____13_____11____156_MN_2073_Macalester
    ____15_____96_____26______7______5______5____154_ME_1847_Colby
    ____17_____93_____16______7______8_____10____151_ME_1805_Bowdoin
    ____27_____88_____14_____12______3______6____150_CO_2050_Colorado
    ____24_____69_____22______9______4_____21____149_WA_1498_Whitman
    ____21_____85_____12_____12______8______6____144_VT_2526_Middlebury
    ____11_____70_____36_____16______4______5____142_OH_2066_Coll of Wooster
    _____8_____76_____21_____20______7______7____139_NY_2418_Vassar
    ____10_____78_____24_____10______9______7____138_TX_2297_Trinity Univ
    ____13_____65_____25_____17______3_____13____136_WA_2553_U of Puget Sound
    _____9_____65_____31_____10_____11______8____134_MI_3432_Hope
    _____9_____65_____34______8______6_____11____133_SC_2810_Furman Univ
    ____16_____57_____41______7______1_____10____132_PA_2209_Franklin & Marshall
    ____19_____78_____17______7______1______9____131_ME_1773_Bates
    _____9_____64_____21_____23______2______8____127_MN_2456_Gustavus Adolphus
    _____9_____68_____17_____14______2_____15____125_PA_1308_Bryn Mawr
    _____2_____68_____32______8______5______8____123_MI_1461_Kalamazoo
    _____3_____63_____23______8______8_____12____117_PA_2503_Lafayette
    _____3_____70_____20______9______6______7____115_MI_3894_Calvin
    _____1_____77_____19______4______2_____12____115_NC_1770_Davidson
    ____10_____53_____18_____21______4______9____115_WI_1519_Lawrence Univ
    _____2_____86______8______6______5______3____110_OH_1734_Ohio Wesleyan Univ
    ____11_____62_____20______8______1______7____109_CA_2040_Occidental
    _____1_____82_____18______2______4______1____108_PA_1681_Ursinus
    _____5_____74_____19______3______1______4____106_NY_2573_Barnard
    ____13_____59_____26______4______0______4____106_PA_1615_Juniata
    _____2_____48_____33______9______2_____10____104_MA_2937_Coll of the Holy Cross
    _____4_____61_____11______8_____14______4____102_IN_2216_DePauw Univ
    _____0_____64_____14_____12______1_____11____102_OH_1662_Kenyon
    ____10_____64_____12______4______1______7_____98_IL_2497_Augustana
    ____24_____57______5______5______4______1_____96_FL_1815_Eckerd
    _____3_____61_____21______3______6______2_____96_PA_2451_Gettysburg
    _____7_____40_____18______8______1_____18_____92_MA_1587_Wheaton
    _____8_____60______9______8______2______2_____89_PA_2364_Dickinson
    ____15_____47_____15______6______2______4_____89_NY_1900_Hamilton
    _____8_____68______7______0______3______3_____89_NY_2632_Skidmore
    _____1_____68_____10______3______5______1_____88_MA_1932_Clark Univ
    _____1_____54_____18_____11______3______0_____87_NJ_1417_Drew Univ
    _____1_____47_____15_____10______3_____10_____86_FL_834_New College of FL
    _____8_____43_____20______6______4______5_____86_NY_2242_Union
    _____3_____61______7______8______2______4_____85_OH_2280_Denison Univ
    _____0_____58______6______1______6_____11_____82_GA_2135_Spelman
    _____3_____59______9______4______5______0_____80_IN_993_Earlham
    _____1_____46_____22______1______4______5_____79_OR_2375_Willamette Univ
    _____1_____41_____18_____10______2______6_____78_PA_2509_Grove City
    _____2_____42_____18______4______2_____10_____78_IL_1399_Knox
    _____5_____34_____27______5______3______3_____77_MI_1268_Albion
    ____12_____44______8______3______6______4_____77_WI_1303_Beloit
    _____3_____43_____15______7______4______5_____77_AR_1348_Hendrix
    _____9_____39_____15______0______6______7_____76_VA_1890_WA & Lee Univ
    _____6_____46_____16______1______3______3_____75_CT_1893_Conneticutt
    _____1_____48______8______7______6______4_____74_OR_2179_Lewis & Clark
    _____2_____50_____15______4______1______2_____74_PA_2440_Muhlenberg
    _____1_____42_____14______6______0______9_____72_MN_2381_Concordia-Moorhead
    _____0_____40_____17______1______2_____10_____70_NY_2868_Canisius
    _____0_____37_____16______8______3______5_____69_KY_1387_Centre
    _____8_____31______9______4______7______7_____66_TN_1631_Sewanee: U of the South
    _____1_____38_____14______1______5______7_____66_CT_2255_Trinity
    _____2_____36______7______6______7______7_____65_NY_2059_Bard
    _____2_____34_____14______8______1______6_____65_MN_1789_St. John's Univ,ville
    ____11_____38______1______4______5______5_____64_MA_1410_Hampshire
    _____0_____40_____11______5______4______3_____63_MI_1396_Alma
    _____2_____32_____12_____10______4______3_____63_GA_2109_Morehouse
    _____0_____30_____17_____10______1______4_____62_PA_1683_Lebanon Valley
    _____7_____30_____12______3______4______6_____62_NY_2406_St. Lawrence Univ
    _____4_____37_____16______1______1______3_____62_WI_2112_St. Norbert
    _____1_____31_____16______3______0______7_____58_KY_1621_Berea
    _____1_____41______8______1______3______4_____58_PA_2789_Messiah
    _____4_____22_____14______9______1______6_____56_OR_1683_Linfield
    _____2_____35______6______3______4______5_____55_TN_2031_Rhodes
    _____0_____24_____19______8______0______2_____53_IN_926_Wabash
    _____7_____30______8______2______3______2_____52_IA_1077_Cornell
    _____0_____39______3______5______3______2_____52_OH_1235_Hiram
    _____5_____25_____10______2______5______5_____52_MS_771_Millsaps
    _____0_____38_____11______0______0______2_____51_MA_2401_Stonehill
    _____1_____25_____15______3______1______3_____48_GA_2085_Berry
    _____4_____18_____15______8______1______2_____48_CO_3751_Fort Lewis
    _____0_____25_____11______6______4______2_____48_NY_3139_Siena
    _____2_____25_____11______5______1______3_____47_IA_1435_Coe
    _____3_____35______5______3______0______1_____47_IN_1145_Hanover
    _____0_____21_____18______3______4______1_____47_IL_1607_Lake Forest
    _____1_____22_____15______4______2______2_____46_PA_1138_Westminster-New Wilm
    _____1_____24_____14______2______1______3_____45_TX_1278_Austin
    _____2_____28______9______2______0______4_____45_CA_1301_Claremont McKenna
    _____0_____25_____12______4______0______4_____45_MI_1472_Hillsdale
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    Second half of table

    GeoSci_LifeSci__Chem_Physics____CS___Math___total_ST_size_name
    _____1_____33_____10______0______0______0_____44_PA_1342_Cedar Crest
    _____0_____32______8______1______0______3_____44_PA_1788_Elizabethtown
    _____2_____25______8______2______2______3_____42_MN_2020_Coll of St. Benedict
    _____1_____26_____11______2______1______1_____42_MD_1471_Goucher
    _____3_____23_____12______2______1______1_____42_NY_2421_Hobart & William Smiths
    _____0_____25_____12______0______1______4_____42_PA_2002_King's-Wilkes Barre
    _____0_____26______9______2______0______5_____42_MD_1706_McDaniel
    _____0_____26_____13______1______0______2_____42_MS_1984_Mississippi
    _____2_____23______7______5______1______3_____41_SC_1608_Wofford
    _____1_____19_____11______5______2______2_____40_SD_1671_Augustana-Sioux Falls
    _____3_____28______6______0______1______2_____40_NY_1540_Hartwick
    _____0_____28______5______3______3______1_____40_IA_1661_Wartburg
    _____1_____23_____12______3______1______0_____40_PA_1362_WA & Jefferson
    _____0_____26______5______2______2______4_____39_AL_1185_Birmingham Southern
    _____0_____21______8______2______3______3_____37_NY_2849_Le Moyne
    _____1_____16_____13______6______1______0_____37_PA_1612_Moravian
    _____0_____30______5______0______0______2_____37_IN_1519_St. Mary's-Notre Dame
    _____0_____26______5______0______0______4_____35_GA_873_Agnes Scott
    _____1_____22______1______6______2______3_____35_IN_774_Goshen
    _____1_____26______7______0______0______1_____35_NY_2057_Nazareth
    _____2_____16_____14______1______0______2_____35_VA_1394_Randolph-Macon
    _____0_____25_____10______0______0______0_____35_NH_1968_St. Anselm
    _____1_____19______7______3______0______5_____35_CA_1313_Westmont
    _____2_____14_____11______0______2______5_____34_WI_2873_Carthage
    _____2_____27______4______0______0______0_____33_PA_2360_Albright
    _____1_____17_____10______2______1______1_____32_VA_1105_Hampden-Sydney
    _____1_____25______4______0______1______1_____32_MD_1359_Hood
    _____1_____15______8______2______1______5_____32_NY_1048_Houghton
    _____0_____27______4______1______0______0_____32_CA_972_Scripps
    _____1_____19______6______0______2______3_____31_MT_1430_Carroll
    _____0_____24______4______3______0______0_____31_LA_553_Centenary of Louisiana
    _____1_____17______7______3______1______2_____31_VT_2123_St. Michael's
    _____0_____17_____10______1______1______1_____30_PA_1357_Lycoming
    _____0_____16_____10______4______0______0_____30_PA_1626_St. Vincent
    _____1_____22______4______0______2______1_____30_CA_1665_Whittier
    _____1_____17______9______2______0______1_____30_MO_1043_William Jewell
    _____1_____20______3______2______0______3_____29_ID_1120_Coll of Idaho
    _____3_____16______3______5______1______1_____29_NC_2137_Guilford
    _____1_____20______4______2______0______2_____29_NY_NA_Manhattan
    _____0_____16______8______0______1______4_____29_IA_1215_NW-Or. City
    _____0_____21______2______3______1______2_____29_WA_3264_Seattle Pacific Univ
    _____0_____22______5______0______1______0_____28_MN_2859_Coll of St. Scholastica
    _____0_____18______4______1______1______3_____27_PA_1417_Geneva
    _____4_____13______9______0______0______1_____27_WI_584_Northland
    _____0_____17______9______0______0______1_____27_WI_840_Ripon
    _____0_____18______6______0______3______0_____27_MS_900_Tougaloo
    _____0_____12_____12______1______1______0_____26_MA_2008_Assumption-Worcester
    _____0_____14______7______1______0______4_____26_IA_1490_Loras
    _____0_____17______8______0______0______1_____26_NY_2857_St. John Fisher
    _____0_____16______7______2______0______0_____25_SC_591_Erskine
    _____2_____14______4______2______2______1_____25_VA_2054_Roanoke
    _____1_____23______0______0______0______1_____25_MA_2171_Springfield
    _____1_____16______5______1______0______2_____25_MD_1467_WA
    _____0_____10______8______1______2______3_____24_IA_1411_Central
    _____1_____12______1______4______1______4_____23_MA_1736_Gordon
    _____0_____19______1______1______2______0_____23_MA_1622_Simmons
    _____0_____16______1______1______1______3_____22_SC_1146_Presbyterian
    _____0_____16______1______1______0______3_____21_CA_1076_Pitzer
    _____0_____11______5______1______1______2_____20_FL_1932_Rollins
    _____1______9______6______1______1______1_____19_FL_2172_FL Southern
    _____1_____14______1______2______0______0_____18_NY_1437_Sarah Lawrence
    _____0_____10______4______0______0______1_____15_CA_917_Mills
    _____2______9______1______0______0______2_____14_IA_1399_Dordt
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    To put these numbers in perspective, you should look at the same tables for all schools, including large research universities. Posted here:
    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19567189/#Comment_19567189

    Some background on the role of small LACs in STEM. These publications analyze similar data but different years and a smaller set of LACs.

    Strengthening the STEM Pipeline: The Contributions of Small and Mid-Sized Independent Colleges
    http://www.cic.edu/research-and-data/research-studies/documents/stem-report.pdf

    Science at liberal arts colleges. A better education? by TR Cech
    https://www.hhmi.org/sites/default/files/Programs/cech_article.pdf

    Here is an article analyzing the same data but focused on PhDs in Computer Science
    http://cra.org/crn/2013/01/exploring_the_baccalaureate_origin_of_domestic_ph-d-_students_in_compu/
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    edited July 2016
    Last table for tonight. This one shows the total number of alums who got a PhD in the hard sciences 2004-2014, but now I've sorted by the # of PhDs per 100 enrolled. This is how the # was normalized in Science at liberal arts colleges. A better education? by TR Cech
    https://www.hhmi.org/sites/default/files/Programs/cech_article.pdf
    but I'm showing many more schools. Cech just looked at the top-ranked 20 or so LACs.

    total is sum of columns 1 to 6 (GeoSci+LifeSci+Physics+CS+Math)
    size is size of school 2015-2016 per USNews
    per.100 is 100*total/size

    total__per.100__size_name
    290____36.1___804____Harvey Mudd
    406____19.7___2057___Carleton
    250____16.2___1542___Swarthmore
    177____14.8___1194___Haverford
    210____12.7___1650___Pomona
    253____12.4___2045___Williams
    207____11.9___1734___Grinnell
    233____11.1___2100___Reed
    86_____10.3___834____New College of FL
    149____9.9____1498___Whitman
    175____9.8____1792___Amherst
    125____9.6____1308___Bryn Mawr
    192____9.5____2023___Allegheny
    261____8.8____2961___Oberlin
    151____8.4____1805___Bowdoin
    123____8.4____1461___Kalamazoo
    154____8.3____1847___Colby
    80_____8.1____993____Earlham
    172____7.9____2189___Mount Holyoke
    196____7.6____2563___Smith
    115____7.6____1519___Lawrence Univ
    156____7.5____2073___Macalester
    131____7.4____1773___Bates
    222____7.3____3034___St. Olaf
    150____7.3____2050___Colorado
    164____7.1____2323___Wellesley
    142____6.9____2066___Coll of Wooster
    198____6.8____2928___Wesleyan Univ
    52_____6.7____771____Millsaps
    106____6.6____1615___Juniata
    115____6.5____1770___Davidson
    108____6.4____1681___Ursinus
    110____6.3____1734___Ohio Wesleyan Univ
    178____6.2____2875___Colgate Univ
    102____6.1____1662___Kenyon
    87_____6.1____1417___Drew Univ
    77_____6.1____1268___Albion
    138____6______2297___Trinity Univ
    132____6______2209___Franklin & Marshall
    77_____5.9____1303___Beloit
    92_____5.8____1587___Wheaton
    144____5.7____2526___Middlebury
    139____5.7____2418___Vassar
    77_____5.7____1348___Hendrix
    53_____5.7____926____Wabash
    78_____5.6____1399___Knox
    31_____5.6____553____Centenary of Louisiana
    136____5.3____2553___U of Puget Sound
    109____5.3____2040___Occidental
    96_____5.3____1815___Eckerd
    127____5.2____2456___Gustavus Adolphus
    69_____5______1387___Centre
    174____4.9____3565___Bucknell Univ
    52_____4.8____1077___Cornell
    133____4.7____2810___Furman Univ
    117____4.7____2503___Lafayette
    89_____4.7____1900___Hamilton
    102____4.6____2216___DePauw Univ
    88_____4.6____1932___Clark Univ
    27_____4.6____584____Northland
    64_____4.5____1410___Hampshire
    63_____4.5____1396___Alma
    35_____4.5____774____Goshen
    52_____4.2____1235___Hiram
    25_____4.2____591____Erskine
    106____4.1____2573___Barnard
    54_____4.1____1327___U of Dallas
    47_____4.1____1145___Hanover
    76_____4______1890___WA & Lee Univ
    75_____4______1893___Conneticutt
    66_____4______1631___Sewanee: U of the South
    46_____4______1138___Westminster-New Wilm
    35_____4______873____Agnes Scott
    134____3.9____3432___Hope
    98_____3.9____2497___Augustana
    96_____3.9____2451___Gettysburg
    89_____3.8____2364___Dickinson
    86_____3.8____2242___Union
    82_____3.8____2135___Spelman
    85_____3.7____2280___Denison Univ
    62_____3.7____1683___Lebanon Valley
    65_____3.6____1789___St. John's Univ,ville
    58_____3.6____1621___Berea
    104____3.5____2937___Coll of the Holy Cross
    45_____3.5____1278___Austin
    45_____3.5____1301___Claremont McKenna
    89_____3.4____2632___Skidmore
    74_____3.4____2179___Lewis & Clark
    79_____3.3____2375___Willamette Univ
    56_____3.3____1683___Linfield
    47_____3.3____1435___Coe
    44_____3.3____1342___Cedar Crest
    39_____3.3____1185___Birmingham Southern
    32_____3.3____972____Scripps
    65_____3.2____2059___Bard
    27_____3.2____840____Ripon
    78_____3.1____2509___Grove City
    45_____3.1____1472___Hillsdale
    32_____3.1____1048___Houghton
    115____3______3894___Calvin
    74_____3______2440___Muhlenberg
    72_____3______2381___Concordia-Moorhead
    63_____3______2109___Morehouse
    27_____3______900____Tougaloo
    66_____2.9____2255___Trinity
    62_____2.9____2112___St. Norbert
    47_____2.9____1607___Lake Forest
    42_____2.9____1471___Goucher
    40_____2.9____1362___WA & Jefferson
    32_____2.9____1105___Hampden-Sydney
    30_____2.9____1043___William Jewell
    55_____2.7____2031___Rhodes
    35_____2.7____1313___Westmont
    62_____2.6____2406___St. Lawrence Univ
    40_____2.6____1540___Hartwick
    29_____2.6____1120___Coll of Idaho
    44_____2.5____1788___Elizabethtown
    42_____2.5____1706___McDaniel
    41_____2.5____1608___Wofford
    35_____2.5____1394___Randolph-Macon
    70_____2.4____2868___Canisius
    40_____2.4____1671___Augustana-Sioux Falls
    40_____2.4____1661___Wartburg
    37_____2.4____1519___St. Mary's-Notre Dame
    32_____2.4____1359___Hood
    29_____2.4____1215___NW-Orange City
    48_____2.3____2085___Berry
    37_____2.3____1612___Moravian
    31_____2.2____1430___Carroll
    30_____2.2____1357___Lycoming
    58_____2.1____2789___Messiah
    51_____2.1____2401___Stonehill
    42_____2.1____2020___Coll of St. Benedict
    42_____2.1____2002___King's-Wilkes Barre
    42_____2.1____1984___Mississippi
    21_____2______1076___Pitzer
    27_____1.9____1417___Geneva
    22_____1.9____1146___Presbyterian
    35_____1.8____1968___St. Anselm
    30_____1.8____1626___St. Vincent
    30_____1.8____1665___Whittier
    42_____1.7____2421___Hobart & William Smiths
    35_____1.7____2057___Nazareth
    26_____1.7____1490___Loras
    25_____1.7____1467___Washington
    24_____1.7____1411___Central
    15_____1.6____917____Mills
    48_____1.5____3139___Siena
    31_____1.5____2123___St. Michael's
    33_____1.4____2360___Albright
    29_____1.4____2137___Guilford
    23_____1.4____1622___Simmons
    48_____1.3____3751___Fort Lewis
    37_____1.3____2849___Le Moyne
    26_____1.3____2008___Assumption-Worcester
    23_____1.3____1736___Gordon
    18_____1.3____1437___Sarah Lawrence
    34_____1.2____2873___Carthage
    25_____1.2____2054___Roanoke
    25_____1.2____2171___Springfield
    28_____1______2859___Coll of St. Scholastica
    20_____1______1932___Rollins
    14_____1______1399___Dordt
    29_____0.9____3264___Seattle Pacific Univ
    26_____0.9____2857___St. John Fisher
    19_____0.9____2172___FL Southern
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    Alice T. Schafer Prize for Excellence in Mathematics by an Undergraduate Woman
    https://sites.google.com/site/awmmath/programs/schafer-prize/schafer-prize-awardees

    2016-1990
    36 awards (winner, runner-up or honorable mention) given to undergraduate women at LACS
    5 Harvey Mudd
    4 Bryn Mawr
    3 Swarthmore
    3 Haverford
    2 Smith
    2 Grinnell
    1 Williams
    1 Reed
    1 Bard
    1 Carleton
    1 Scripps
    1 Mount Holyoke
    1 Franklin & Marshall
    1 Agnes Scott
    1 Wellesley
    1 Amherst
    1 Bowdoin
    1 Colorado College
    1 Kalamazoo
    1 Spelman
    1 Santa Clara
    1 Amherst
    1 College of the Holy Cross

    In comparison....
    38 to Elite Universities
    10 UC Berkeley
    8 Harvard
    7 MIT
    4 Univ of Chicago
    4 Princeton
    2 Dartmouth
    1 Yale
    1 Stanford
    1 Cornell

    35 to large public research universities
    9 Univ of Michigan
    6 Univ of Notre Dame
    2 Univ of Utah
    2 Univ of Georgia
    2 Univ of Massachusetts Amherst
    2 University of Colorado at Boulder
    2 UC Santa Barbara
    2 Texas A&M University
    2 University of Nebraska
    1 University of Alabama
    1 UC San Diego
    1 University of Texas
    1 University of Wisconsin
    1 Univ of Washington
    1 University of Montana

    Full list by year posted separately
  • juilletjuillet Super Moderator Posts: 11,304 Super Moderator
    edited January 25
    The only thing I want to say here is that folks should be careful interpreting this data, as it's only descriptive (as opposed to inferential). There's no information on whether these differences are statistically significant, and even if they are what the causes and drivers of them are. I think it's safe to say that the average Carleton or Swarthmore student has more precipitating factors (initial desire, motivation, knowledge about PhD-level careers) and probably academic achievement/prowess than the average Beloit or Willamette student, but that says nothing about the outliers - for example, whether the same sufficiently motivated, superstar student would have better chances attending Carleton than Beloit.

    This becomes important when students are comparing scholarship offers. For example, let's say you've got a superstar student who has already started doing high school research and has a paper published and one in preparation. She's got a full ride scholarship to Whitman and her family is full pay at Carleton. Would she necessarily have better chances going to get a PhD if she chose Carleton? No, that's committing the ecological fallacy in statistics. A student who has a publication in high school could probably go practically anywhere and still come out on top.

    The other thing these lists don't do is stratify. Note that Spelman and Morehouse, both historically black colleges, are towards the middle of the list. Also note, though, that in other places analyses show that black science and engineering PhDs disproportionately come from HBCUs, and Spelman and Morehouse rank very highly when you take that into account (and also into account that very large proportions of their student bodies are low-income going by Pell recipients).

    Would it be better for an aspiring PhD who is African American to go to Colgate or Morehouse, or Kenyon or Spelman? There's no answer to that - it's going to be very individual and depend a lot on the student. The same is likely true of many other minority groups - women, low-income students, Latinos, etc. (I can say that for my part, going to an HBCU - Spelman, in fact - was instrumental in my decision to get a PhD in a STEM, albeit not "hard" science, field. The fact that I had lots of black female professors in front of me in my classrooms, and a black female president and black female deans and black female alumni who were getting PhDs...it left a tremendous impression on me that could not have been replicated at a predominantly white school. I'm not saying I wouldn't have gotten a PhD if I had gone anywhere else; I'm just saying it made a huge difference.)

    Also, some colleges may either simply attract students who are less likely to want PhDs or foster a spirit in kids to go pursue other avenues. Note that Scripps, Claremont McKenna, and Pitzer, all elite LACs, are near the bottom of this list. Is there something about the atmosphere at the Claremont Colleges that encourages entering careers other than science & engineering research? Maybe! Would that mean that an aspiring PhD should attend Seattle Pacific instead of Scripps, Whittier instead of Pitzer, or St. Lawrence instead of Claremont McKenna? Eh, probably not.
  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    The question of where an *individual* will do better is a very hard question to answer, and perhaps unanswerable. My intent was simply to show the numbers. What if I had asked you which LAC had produced the most alums who went on to get PhDs in mathematics: Bowdoin College (#6 on US News Ranking) or Spelman College (#72 on US New Ranking)? I think all would say Bowdoin, but that is not in fact the case. Bowdoin produced 10 and Spelman 11, though they are not that different in enrollment. 10 vs 11 is not a "significant" difference by any means. But if you were interested in math and weighing those two schools, then that bit of information might be useful.

    Or consider the case of a student interested in Spelman and Morehouse. If I am interested in physics, it would appear that Morehouse has a fairly strong physics department. 10 is quite a large number for a school that size. Yes Carleton, Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore and a number of other schools are higher. But perhaps the student has no interest in those schools. It might be relevant to that student to know that Morehouse produced a similar number of alums who went on to get PhDs in physics as Wesleyan, Middlebury, Oberlin, Occidental.

    GeoSci_LifeSci__Chem_Physics____CS___Math___total_ST_size_name
    _____0_____58______6______1______6_____11_____82_GA_2135_Spelman
    _____2_____32_____12_____10______4______3_____63_GA_2109_Morehouse


  • shoot4moonshoot4moon Registered User Posts: 1,136 Senior Member
    These are amazing tables!!!!!! Thank you so much!!! JUst curious.. what was your motivation in doing this hard work?????
  • porcupine98porcupine98 Registered User Posts: 1,393 Senior Member
    edited March 16
    @liska21 The two Wesleyan listings look odd to me in the chart with this header.

    Adm.Rate______Size_PhD.Prod_PhD/1000___%Need____%Merit__Ave.Merit_School

    ____20.9_____2928______237_______81______100________1____47200_Wesleyan

    ____75.4_____1734______119_______69_______79________0________0_Ohio Wesleyan


    Pretty sure Ohio Wesleyan does better than zero on average merit, and if the other Wesleyan is the one in Middletown CT, I don't think they do merit at all. If it's a different Wesleyan, that needs spelling out for clarity.

    Merit at Ohio Wesleyan
    https://www.owu.edu/admission/financial-aid-scholarships-tuition/types-of-aid/merit-scholarships-awards/

    Can't find anything on merit at Wesleyan
  • smartalic34smartalic34 Registered User Posts: 775 Member
    @porcupine98 The data for Wesleyan (CT) seems to be accurate. The school has a program started in the mid 90's called the Freeman Asian Scholars where 11 students (one from each of 11 Asian countries) get a full ride, and the criteria is indeed merit based. http://www.wesleyan.edu/admission/freeman/

    This is the only merit aid given by Wesleyan (hence only the 1%), and otherwise the school is identical to its peers in only giving need-based aid and meeting 100% of that need.
  • porcupine98porcupine98 Registered User Posts: 1,393 Senior Member
    Hm. OK, I guess that explains the Wesleyan in CT part, though that data is irrelevant to the average US applicant. Ohio Wesleyan though? They definitely offer merit, so why the zeroes?
  • tk21769tk21769 Registered User Posts: 9,638 Senior Member
    Try accounting for the effects of admission selectivity.
    How many STEM PhDs does a college turn out per N students who enter with SAT-M scores >= 700?
    That might get you a little closer to identifying colleges that prepare/motivate students well for advanced study, even if they aren't cherry-picking the strongest students at admission.

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17572046#Comment_17572046
    see post #7 from Sept 2014

    (But again, note the caveats in #38 above. )

  • liska21liska21 Registered User Posts: 328 Member
    @porcupine98 The Ohio Wesleyan 0s was an error in my data. That should have been 27.7% of freshmen get merit aid and average award size of $21788. All the merit aid data and need-based aid data in these tables are from collegedata.com.

    @tk21769 Yes, I'm doing that in my next analyses. I'm working on another STEM award data set at the moment.



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