College Confidential Forum Ranking of American Undergraduate Schools

[thethoughtprocess]

pastandheels, Collegeboard.com:
Duke 1380 - 1550,
Amherst - 1330 - 1530
I dunno why its different, collegeboard is usually more current. I'll try and see what the difference is - maybe the stats changed somewhat in two years since US News data is for Class of 2009.

Since I'm data mining - National Merit Scholars:
Duke - 118
Amherst - 22

Those two gauges are decent measures of the strength of students academically. Duke and Amherst both have similar placement into elite professional schools so they are identical in that area.

patsandheels - googlebot commented that the ranking was meaningless because Duke was ranked above Amherst. I was commenting on why its not shocking that Amherst is ranked below Duke on a gauge of popular opinion. Amherst is certainly not academically superior to Duke (nor vice versa), and its smaller so its less well known or at least has less applicants. Size and rep matter on an informal poll such as this.

Even in empirical comparisons (rather than informal prestige poll such as this), you'd be hard-pressed to show why Amherst deserves to be ranked in the top 10 or so schools on any list. The top Uni's have great grad programs, but also great undergrads.

[Wwoody123]

Another component of the data mining...

Amherst has 1,648 undergraduates and Duke has 6,197 undergrads.

22 NMS out of 1,648 at Amherst is a little over 1.3 percent.

118 NMS out of of 6,197 is about 1.9 perecent.

The numbers as presented suggest a vast difference but when you look at the ratios it starts to make a little more sense... (assuming the number of national merit scholars in the previous post is correct).

[patsandheels]

thethoughtprocess im not denying the fact that those other more popular schools have great undergraduates. I just dont see how they are any better than amherst's. .6% more nat merit scholors really makes no differance on the quality of edu and of fellow students. Also, sat 25th-75th will obviously be diff each year but in general the ranges at dook and amherst r going to be very similar. If dook is on avg a few point higher that really doesnt meen anything. As we all know someone scoring 20-40 points higher on the sat isnt a whole lot smarter than the person with 20-40 less. I think thats like 1 or 2 questions, heck the higher one might have guessed a q right and got that slight edge. Im also not surprised dooks ranked higher on this poll, im just saying that the quality is prob equal if not better at amherst because of the smaller classes and more individual attention. The stats u presented dont prove to me that dook is in anyway superior to amherst in undergrad edu. Also, many of these major universities rnt undergrad focused, harvard is knocked a lot for its lack of attention given to undergrad edu.

[vicissitudes]

Answer: because this list was based off of opinions of a very small number of random people. You can't back that up with stats and logic.

[thethoughtprocess]

patsandheels - I think you misunderstood why I was comparing Duke to Amherst. I wasn't arguing that Duke is superior to Amherst, I was arguing why it isn't surprising for Duke to be ranked higher than Amherst - its not as if Amherst is superior to Duke in any way.

[patsandheels]

"Even in empirical comparisons (rather than informal prestige poll such as this), you'd be hard-pressed to show why Amherst deserves to be ranked in the top 10 or so schools on any list. The top Uni's have great grad programs, but also great undergrads."

It seems to me that ur suggesting dook, ranked number 8 by usnews and thus in the top ten, is better than amerst who u claim above shouldnt be in the top ten. Im not saying amherst is better than dook but they are at least on the same level. If dook, in ur mind, is a top ten school then why do u state that amherst doesnt deserve to be in the top 10? U say u dont thik one is better than the other, but from ur comparisons and the way u presented them it seems to me that u were trying to prove dook was the better school with brighter students when this simply isnt the case.

[thethoughtprocess]

Eh, it may have come off as saying Duke was better than Amherst, I was just saying its not surprising Duke be ranked above Amherst.

Undergrad Academics of Amherst = Duke
Undergrad Strength of Students of Amherst = Duke

However, Duke is a larger school with more of a national/international rep, which is why it would rank higher since other factors are equal. Same with the other schools ranked above Amherst in the poll (expect Dartmouth, which is more LAC-y).

[thethoughtprocess]

refresh:

Princeton (57)
Stanford (56)
Yale (56)
Harvard (55)
MIT (44)
Columbia (42)
UPenn (37)
Dartmouth (35)
Duke (28)
Caltech (26)
Uchicago (24)
Brown (22)
Amherst (19)
UC-Berkeley (15)
Northwestern (14)
Cornell (13)
Williams (12)
Georgetown (11)
Swarthmore (9)
Johns Hopkins (8)
Rice (7)
UMich (6)
UVA (6)
Pomona (4)
WashU in St.Louis (4)
Tufts (5)
USMA (1)
USNA (1)

by the way pats, you spell Duke wrong.

[Duffman28]

^ Shouldn't Tufts be above WashU and Pomona now?

[gellino]

I would hardly call LACs the JV and Nat. Univs the varsity considering that Williams and Amherst have higher SAT avgs than 5/8 Ivys. Plus, it depends what you mean by prestige. More people overall have heard of the Ivys, but of people who have heard of both, Williams & Amherst are just as respected and do as well in grad school and job placement as Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, Cornell, UPenn and that is really the important thing. After that, it's just a matter of personal preference of the type of environment one likes best.

IMO, the concept of rubbing elbows with Nobel Laureats is way overrated on the board and from what I can tell UGs aren't really coming into contact with them anyway. Objectively measuring faculty quality is always going to be an even more nebulous debate than ranking colleges, but I don't see how the faculty at Dartmouth or Brown is any better than at Williams or Amherst.

[SimpleTruth]

My top 10, in alphabetical order:

Columbia
Caltech
Dartmouth
Duke
Harvard
MIT
Princeton
Stanford
Williams
Yale

Updated:
Princeton (58)
Stanford (57)
Yale (57)
Harvard (56)
MIT (45)
Columbia (43)
UPenn (37)
Dartmouth (36)
Duke (29)
Caltech (27)
Uchicago (24)
Brown (22)
Amherst (19)
UC-Berkeley (15)
Northwestern (14)
Cornell (13)
Williams (13)
Georgetown (11)
Swarthmore (9)
Johns Hopkins (8)
Rice (7)
UMich (6)
UVA (6)
Tufts (5)
Pomona (4)
WashU in St.Louis (4)
USMA (1)
USNA (1)

[virtuoso_735]

My vote added:
Princeton (58)
Yale (58)
Stanford (57)
Harvard (56)
MIT (45)
Columbia (43)
UPenn (37)
Dartmouth (36)
Duke (29)
Caltech (27)
Uchicago (24)
Brown (22)
Amherst (19)
UC-Berkeley (15)
Northwestern (14)
Cornell (13)
Williams (13)
Georgetown (11)
Swarthmore (9)
Johns Hopkins (8)
Rice (7)
UMich (6)
UVA (6)
Tufts (5)
Pomona (4)
WashU in St.Louis (4)
USMA (1)
USNA (1)

[footballyus2345]

I have a few concerns with this list. While I can see why one would rank Princeton above Harvard, or many other schools. But I am suprised that Harvard isnt on everyones top 10 list somewhere - well not to suprsised as it is only two spaves - Dartmouths low number is a little shocking, but I woudl contribute that to its smaller student body and remote location (the LAC prestige synrome). I can also understand why MIT and CALTECH dont have higher numbers - as they are more science oriented. Middlebury's absence is shocking (in my opinion the fastes growing LAC in terms of quality and reogniton - im betting they will be 3 or 4 in USNEWS in 2 yrs) Anyways, my list:

1. Harvard - by far the most prestigious school in the WORLD - a great stepping stone for anything
2. MIT
3. Princeton
4. Yale
5. Cal Tech
6. Amherst
7. Williams
8. Dartmouth
9. Stanford
10. Middlebury

While, many people will complain that I have Stanford to low on my list, I beleive that the undergrad education there is VERY SLIGHTLY below the qualit of the education at smaller schools. This is my personal opinion, but I believe that a smaller school gives more individual attention, focuses less on the importnace of research, and less focus on grad students (all factors that, in my opinion enhance the quality of an undergrad education) Oh yes, I am also completely biased agaisnt large state schools. Anyways, updated list:

Princeton (59)
Yale (59)
Stanford (58)
Harvard (57)
MIT (46)
Columbia (43)
UPenn (37)
Dartmouth (37)
Duke (29)
Caltech (28)
Uchicago (24)
Brown (22)
Amherst (20)
UC-Berkeley (15)
Northwestern (14)
Cornell (13)
Williams (14)
Georgetown (11)
Swarthmore (9)
Johns Hopkins (8)
Rice (7)
UMich (6)
UVA (6)
Tufts (5)
Pomona (4)
WashU in St.Louis (4)
USMA (1)
USNA (1)
Middlebury (1)

[brownhopefully]

1. Brown!!!
2. Harvard
3. Princeton
4. Yale
5. Stanford
6. MIT
7. Amherst
8. Williams
9. Caltech
10. U. of Penn.

Princeton (60)
Yale (60)
Stanford (59)
Harvard (58)
MIT (47)
Columbia (43)
UPenn (38)
Dartmouth (37)
Duke (29)
Caltech (29)
Uchicago (24)
Brown (23)
Amherst (21)
UC-Berkeley (15)
Williams (15)
Northwestern (14)
Cornell (13)
Georgetown (11)
Swarthmore (9)
Johns Hopkins (8)
Rice (7)
UMich (6)
UVA (6)
Tufts (5)
Pomona (4)
WashU in St.Louis (4)
USMA (1)
USNA (1)
Middlebury (1)

[patsandheels]

thethoughtprocess i agree with u 100%. Also, i know its spelled duke im not from a cave.