jgraider

You seriously bumped this thread to say that?

BrotherAtticus

At post #56:
Have you not followed the discussion at all? We know that education is liberal-dominated. Many of us are attesting that that's a bad thing. It is long past time in this country to stop regarding the Ivy League so highly, when they have a record of indoctrination dating from the 1960s (surprise, surprise) and the tests apparently showing that the students come out less knowledgeable than they went in. "Good" or "greater" is a total gray area when describing colleges because no one agrees on what is most important to learn. However, I will tell you that while Ivy/eastern liberal students typically don't understand civics, many a straight-laced conservative Hillsdale graduate has griped that Harvard Law's academia is too easy--plus we don't have the shame of ever having sold out to the feds. "Virtus Tentamine Gaudet"

j2jeffsc

I know this is a really old feed, but between UPenn, Dartmouth, Yale, and UChicago, which is the less liberal? I tend to be pretty conservative and am looking for a prestigious business school that's not going to tear down every iota of values that I have...
I tend to prefer schools in the eastern United States, but if you have any other suggestions about a less liberal, prestigious business school (for MBA), that would be great!
Thanks!

Bossf51

I would say Dartmouth, alma mater of such conservative types as Laura Ingraham and Dinesh D'Souza. Lots of Young R's there.

dietz199

Old Thread, new input. Just completed DS first round of 'what type of environment/area/campus would you like. Visited large urban, small suburban, LAC and research institutions. DS liked the 'look and feel' of Occidental - this based on a self guided tour on during a holiday visit. After a bit of review and searching, this seems like the an oppressive thought controlling 'only if you are on board with a very liberal ideology' campus. Any IRL experiences with this campus?

tk21769

You may want to check out the reviews of Occidental and other colleges on collegeguide.org. This is an unabashedly conservative site (with its own agenda) but if that's your slant, you probably will find the reviews well-written and (the slant notwithstanding) fairly balanced in pointing out both good and bad features. Occidental is their #9 "Train Wreck School" (CollegeGuide.org - Rating America's Colleges)

Very few schools proclaim a position in their public mission statements that could be characterized as clearly left or right. The only class of schools I can think of that do this are the so-called Christian Schools and a few other religious institutions. From this perspective, there are more schools with a deliberately conservative than a deliberately liberal/left institutional agenda. The rest are complex communities that attract people with a range of political attitudes ... although, the more selective and prestigious ones do seem to lean more or less to the left in faculty and student opinions on major issues.

As you visit and research more schools, you're likely to find others with the 'look and feel' of Occidental that don't give rise to quite the same concerns. Check out Claremont McKenna (CA), Pomona (CA), Colorado College (CO), St. Olaf (MN), St. John's College (NM & MD), Davidson (NC), Haverford (PA), and Williams (MA). These are selective LACs that get a "green light" on collegeguide.org.

dietz199

tk...thanks..will check out the site.

DS - and his parental units - want and encourage the discussion of ideas outside of all of our standard 'go to' opinions. DS went to a very conservative K-8 school where the philosophy of thought was clearly stated, known and we signed up for this with full knowledge. It provided amply opportunities for discussion and application of the 80/20 principle...if 80% works, deal with the 20% that doesn't. He is currently in a Jesuit HS and although there is a working philosophy the atmosphere is one of open discussion, respect for differing opinions and encouragement of looking at things differently. An environment much different than the K-8.

We are well aware of the leanings of most institutions of higher learning and DS embraces the opportunities to expand his views and hopes to maybe help others expand theirs. In the case of Oxy...we came across several documented cases of what in essence is bullying and emotional threatening of students who voiced views counter to the group think. Diversity does not seem to include diversity of thought. I'm not to keen on the idea of paying 55K/year and have DS told in essence "well, if ppl are uncomfortable with you then obviously YOU need to take a sensitivity course and get in line"

Oxy was of interest because of the physics 3/2 plan and the links to CalTech and Columbia.

johnwesley

any links to the documented cases of bullying? It would be helpful in knowing what your benchmarks are.

dietz199

john

Occidental College: Use of Harassment Charges to Suppress Protected Speech - FIRE

In this case the ACLU took up the representation of the aggrieved student.

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/read...spx?ARTID=6325

These are specific instances. There are others but they would probably violate the TOS since they seem to be personal blogs.

northdad

It is not at all clear that the Antebi case is an example of "...an oppressive thought controlling 'only if you are on board with a very liberal ideology' campus." Most of the case was thrown out of court:

"A county court dismissed Mr. Antebi’s suit, and an appellate court dismissed all but his defamation claim. The state’s Supreme Court declined to hear the case. Some free-speech advocates denounced the courts’ narrow interpretation of the Leonard Law — that it did not apply to Mr. Antebi because he sued after he graduated.

"The college has now settled the remaining defamation claim for a “nominal amount,” according to Stuart D. Tochner, Occidental’s lawyer. “There isn’t and never was any merit to Mr. Antebi’s lawsuit,” said Mr. Tochner. “This settlement will spare the college’s employees from a wasteful diversion of attention.”"

Occidental College Settles Lawsuit With 'Shock Jock' Student - News - The Chronicle of Higher Education

dietz199

north...does it not concern you that the administrations response to the issue was to disband the student government? Does it not ring of a rather suppressive culture - one which would cause other students to think twice about voicing 'counter' ideas? The fact that the ACLU sided with the student is rather telling. My original question was whether this school creates an atmosphere where libertarian/right of center ideas and thus the students that hold these views are made to feel comfortable and accepted or whether the administration supports an environment of fear and 'henpecking' for those students.

From what we saw during our self guided tour and our discussion with a few students - we all WANT to like this place. DS spent a considerable amount of time in one of the theaters speaking with a student and a former student. He is intrigued by the physics program and liked the physical feel of the campus. After looking at the curriculum description of a number of the core courses - with their emphasis on very non centrist themes he just want to make sure that who and what he is - male/European American/hetro/centrist is not just exactly what this particular culture may consider to be the root of all evil. And, if he were to speak his mind and voice a minority opinion whether he'd be spending a considerable amount of time in sensitivity training sessions.

johnwesley

It generally takes a lot of provocation for a university administraton to intervene in student affairs to the point where they are concerned about a hostile work environment. You may see this as a conservative issue, but, ask some students at Wesleyan about how they feel about the "chalking ban" currently in effect. There, the issue was as far from being "hetero/centrist" as you could get!

northdad

It is very unusual for a university to shut down a student government. But when I hear of such a thing I do not automatically assume some sort of anti-conservative conspiracy. And in this case it sounds like very inflammatory provocations were being hurled. Perhaps the university went too far in this case (to make that judgment we need more than an ideological rant from Front Page magazine...). But maybe the student at the center of it was being a jerk (he modeled himself on Howard Stern):

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/apr...me-occidental2

In any event, I don't see this as the end of freedom of speech as we know it. At the end of the day you have to make you own decisions, as you will. If you think Oxy is "too liberal," and that is somehow a problem, don't pay for you son to go there. But if you are determined to avoid fundamental challenges to his status as a "male/European American/hetro/centrist" then you are going to be significantly limiting his education opportunities....

austinareadad

It still amazes me how it is accepted without hesitation that social/cultural conservatism and political/economic conservatism naturally go together. In many places in the world they do not, and at times in US history they have not (e.g., William Jennings Bryan's campaigns where he depended on Christian conservatives as he promoted policies to move the country to the left on political/economic issues, also the Social Darwinists of the 19th Century and early 20th were comparatively liberal on social/cultural issues). I am not an expert, but I suspect that the pairing developed during the Cold War, especially because of McCarthyism, where the Soviet Union's communism, along with China's communism, was depicted as being completely intertwined with its atheism (while Liberation Theology in Latin America in the following period was never fully explained in popular media).

Still today some of the Catholic universities appear to promote messages that are somewhat to the left on political/economic issues along with messages that are to the right on social/cultural issues. But that does not seem to give many pause when they lump together the two different kinds of conservatism, even though it appears that the political discussions would be far more informative if the two types were considered separately.

dietz199

austin: that is an excellent point. I suspect there are many social moderate/fiscal conservatives hiding in the proverbial closet at campuses all over the place. I don't want this to cross over into a political discussion - and get the dreaded padlock symbol.

After spending a bit of post visit time thinking about all we saw, heard and sensed on the 6 campuses we visited...I think I can condense the goal down to a simple statement...

Looking for a place that will encourage thoughtful discussion and input from the full spectrum of positions. This will require an administration that values the THOUGHT PROCESS over the IDEOLOGY. I will be require a culture of acceptance for IDEA diversity.

My experiences with Catholic institutions at a HS level both now and back in the 70's shows them to be one of the most open when it comes to dialogue and discourse. The manner in which social issues have been discussed could not have taken place at our local public HS. For example, DS HS has a focus year on immigration and social justice - he is a leader of monthly small group discussions. These round tables get down and dirty! Speech is not couched in an overriding oppressive blanket of PC codes. Yes, there are common decency rules - just like at the dinner table, but all opinions can be voiced. The result has been a remarkable learning and sometimes change of heart experience for these young men - and sometimes even their parents

It would be hard to accept less than this at any university.