slipper1234

The truth is if you want to get into an elite firm or into the top grad schools, undergrad focused schools like Amherst, Williams, Dartmouth, Brown, etc seem to do this at a FAR more significant rate than Cal.

UCBChemEGrad

^ The truth is, Cal has a much larger student population, so naturally the raw number of students pursuing top grad schools/elite firms is less likely...I've met tons of kids that wanted to become school teachers. With an engineering degree from Cal (which makes up about 14% of student popluation), it's more of a terminal degree...There's less need to pursue graduate study because they can find well paying jobs in industry. Keep in mind too that the average student/family at Cal is likely poorer than the average student/family at Amherst, Brown and Dartmouth...so, he/she may have more financial resources to pursue grad study. Also, you're considering "elite" firms to be East Coast-based banks and management consulting firms...these are quite regional and less prevalent in the West. Cal places in "elite firms" like Google, Intel, and other SV tech firms at a FAR more significant rate than Amherst, Williams, Dartmouth and Brown.

patlees88

I agree with UCB. Those Wall street firms won't recruit heavily on Cal's campus simply because of the geography. Why would they incur economic loss to fly over and interview Cal students, when they have access to many excellent schools in the East? That, however, does not indicate that Cal's placement lags behind other schools in the East. Many times, the business jobs are regional especially consulting and banking. I heard that even Stanford MBA grads don't work in the Wall street as much as those from Harvard, Wharton, Stern, and others. Stanford or Cal grads usually settle in Cali.

keefer

I am really tired of all those who put down the elite public schools, all the time just because of their slightly lower median SAT scores. I've been in the workplace for more than 4 years, and I have never heard anything but good things about my alma mater from colleagues and interviewers and most of my colleagues graduated from top 30 schools. Those with professional experience on this site have often echoed that Michigan belongs in the top tier of elites, it's only the kids in high school who seem to not think so.

Michigan is well represented in all top graduate programs in every field, wallstreet, every top management consulting firm. (I'm citing these fields because most kids from elite schools desire these jobs)

Alexandre

Gellino, first of all, I clearly stated that LACs are not part of my ratings.

Secondly, you claimed unbiased people would not rate Michigan in group II and I think I clearly demonstrated that is in fact not true. The academic world and the corporate obviously feel that Michigan belongs in that group. You then claimed that it is because of Michigan's graduate programs. That may well be, but it does not change the fact that Michigan is highly regarded.

Thirdly, your experience, as well as that of your friends', obviously does not mirror mine. Roughly 100-200 Michigan undergrads join Buldge Braket Investment Banks each year. Ross along places 80-100 undergrads into IBanks each year. Those numbers are factual.

Employment Profile - University of Michigan Business School

Employment Profile - University of Michigan Business School

Can you show me how many students from the schools you mentioned join buldge braket IBanks each year? I somehow doubt they place more students than Michigan. From my experience at Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs, Michigan was as well represented as most of the schools on your list, which are also very well represented. According to Businessweek's placement statistics, which are reported by the indivudual programs, Ross places at least as many students into Buldge Bracket IBanks as Sloan, Mendoza, McDonogh, Cornell AEM and McIntire.

Notre Dame : Undergraduate Profile – BusinessWeek

University of Virginia: Undergraduate Profile – BusinessWeek

Cornell University: Undergraduate Profile – BusinessWeek

Massachusetts Institute of Technology: Undergraduate Profile – BusinessWeek

University of Michigan: Undergraduate Profile – BusinessWeek

I find it very suspicious that you (and your friends) did not meet that many Michigan students. Maybe you were avoiding them!

icantfindaname

There may be few Williams and Amherst at SV firms but there are lots of them in private equity and at hedgefunds.

gellino

"Those with professional experience on this site have often echoed that Michigan belongs in the top tier of elites, it's only the kids in high school who seem to not think so."

I have more than four years of work experience and am reporting my observations.

Alex, are you sure you are only looking at people going into corporate finance or all departments within an investment bank? Granted it was a little while ago, but when I was coming out of school, we did an estimate figuring there were 600 bulge-bracket analyst jobs. How many are you estimating there are now? If the top eight banks average 125 each, that is 1,000 total. I can't believe even you would say that 10-20% of Wall Street analyst classes come from UMichigan. Also, at least in my and friends' analyst classes, over 50% of the people came out of non UG business schools.

kyledavid80

Sigh, same thread, over and over again...

I agree with Alexandre's ranking.

In the end, though, those upset that Chicago isn't in the first tier or Michigan and Berkeley aren't in the first tier or X school isn't in Y tier, will find that such incremental differences really are tiny, insignificant, minute, inifitesimal, irrelevant.

thejoker0909

umich gets a high peer assessment b/c its a research powerhouse, which does not make or break ug, especially when one is studying liberal arts. Most people I talked to in my visits to Wash U, ND, and even Vandy had umich as their safety. It has phenomonal grad schools, but its undergrad, b/c of its grad schools are overrated. Let's be honest, most of learning in college comes outside of the classroom, mostly w/ academic peers. The peers at umich (avg. Act 27-31) pale in comparison to the peers at the Vandy, ND, and Wash U (avg. ACT 31-34). And act/ sat scores aren't the only way to assess talent/ ability of the student body. Let's face it, umich is a great school, but at the end of the day its still a big ole' state u. For this reason, the lower academic peer group and lesser amount of personal attention, it should not be considered a peer II school, at least not when ND, Wash U, and Vandy are all peer III. I'm gonna have to agree w/ usnews on this one.

thejoker0909

the placement of the biz schools is not an accurate representation of the total undergrad education. The placement of the biz schools is more a representation of a given schools prestige to attract certain companies. If prestige, which is a result of umich's research abilities, was the only criterion in the excellence of a ug. education, then lac's would all be wastes of time. Do you really think that umich's ug. is better than many elite privates, lacs, w/ the evidence being the success of its biz school? C'mon.

UCBChemEGrad

Well, Ross is also an undergraduate business school that is part of the university. UMich does an excellent job of placing kids with lower SATs into "elite" firms and grad schools...that to me is a better indicator of a good quality school rather than taking super smart kids (ie high SAT/ACT) and passing an already capable student body onto top grad schools.

xiggi

Ever wondered WHY the same hackneyed threads show up with great regularity and with the same predictable scenario. The only variable is how quickly the perennial actors will pop up with the cut/paste of one of the older posts.

Oh well, there is always hope that repeating the same biased non-sense often enough will magically make it true. Or so it seems!

vc08

I completely disagree. Coming out with a degree from Ross or Haas will speak volumes when compared to, say, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Cornell, and even ND (again, nothing against those schools--they all have their strengths as well). Haas has been ranked as one of the top-3 undergrad business programs in the country. In fact, Haas and Ross used to be tied for that rank. Mendoza at ND is in the double digits. Job recruitment is much better for biz majors at UCB/UM than at Dartmouth, Vandy, etc. I know many, many people who've turned down IL schools to attend UCB/UM/NYU for that reason.

Hmm, is that REALLY what happened, or are you just attempting to generalize large schools...I wonder....No doubt large publics are for independently-minded students; you aren't held by the hand throughout your 4 years, which was one of the drawing points for me. At ND, they give you whatever you want, whenever you want. At larger public schools, you have to seek it out on your own, just like in the real world! Perhaps that's another reason why people are listing top publics ahead of your "more prestigious" privates. You have to be very, very good to get into ND, Dartmouth, Harvard, etc., no doubt. But you're given much more help when you're there; not everyone agrees with, or wants, that much dependence on professors and staff; some people want to see what they learn by figuring it out on their own. That's one of the reasons I chose my U over top private universities, and I'm glad I did!

Sam Lee

How to Choose a College - Forbes.com
1 Harvard University
2 Yale University
3 Princeton University
4 University of Chicago
5 Brown University
6 Columbia University
7 California Institute of Technology
8 Stanford University
9 Northwestern University
10 Dartmouth College
11 Boston College
12 University of Pennsylvania
13 Southern Methodist University
14 Cornell University
15 Duke University
16 University of Notre Dame
17 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
18 Johns Hopkins University
19 Wake Forest University
20 Emory University
21 Brandeis University
22 University of Virginia
23 Tufts University
24 Rice University
25 Carnegie Mellon University

vc08

haha I knew that was full of bluff when the article said

Right, because that's SUCH a reliable source to rank universities by.