anzacday

Tsukasa,

Academically, Emory is not bad at all. My department, however, was pretty mediocre. I would say its "not a great school" for social reasons. We have a real frat-boy problem, and a great deal of attention is paid to the logo on one's shirt.

I have still not heard any refutations of my argument: hordes of nameless students rounded up into 500 seat lecture halls, grading and discussion sections the responsibility of GSAs... these are not to sought in undergraduate education.

And this public school business. Being the best public school is like being the tallest building in Omaha... It's a nice fun fact, but in the end... who cares?!

barrons

Hint--most people never even heard of Rice. On the west coast you will just get stared at after you say it followed by, where's that? Pretty much the same in Chicago and the northeast. But it has a good rep in Houston.

GoBlue81

I wonder what teaching assistants in Emory or Rice do. Do they just sit in the office shuffling papers and collecting pay checks?

Surely you exaggerate. Where do you find some of these 500 seat lecture halls? And do you mean to tell me there is no 100 seat lecture halls in any of the top private schools ... like in Harvard or Cornell?

If you prefer LAC type environment, that is fine with me but don't think that the points you raise are only limited to public schools.

Alexandre

anzacday, you got Michigan's endowment per student right, but Rice's endowment per student wrong. Rice's endowment per student is $900,000, not $1.5 million. You may want to add the 2,100 graduate students to the total student body when calculating Rice's per/student endowment. It works better when you do!

Still, Rice's endowment is amazing to be sure. But Michigan's endowment per student is deceiving. Like any flagship state university, Michigan receives hundreds of millions of dollars in state and federal funding annually. $330 million in Michigan's case to be exact. A private university must have $20-$25 of endowment to generate each $1 a state university receives in state funding. That's because universities can only spend 4%-5% of their endowment's worth annually. In other words, a private university must have an endowment of $6.6-$8.3 billion to generate the $330 million that Michigan receives from the state annually. That's in addition to Michigan's $7.1 billion endowment. A private university would require an endowment of $14-$15.5 billion to be in Michigan's financial situation. Otherwise said, Michigan operates like a private university with an endowment per student of $340,000-$380,000. That's comparable to Cornell ($270,000 per student), Columbia ($300,000/student), Penn ($330,000), Brown ($400,000) and Chicago (430,000). And what do you make of schools like Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon and Georgetown? They have endowments per student of $150,000, $100,000 and $75,000 respectively. Those universities must be lacking too I suppose?

And even if the state's future is uncertain, the University of Michigan's future seems unaffected. Michigan's economy and population have been steadily declining for close to 40 years. And yet, in the last 20 years, the University of Michigan's endowment has grown by 2,700%. In that same period, only 5 other universities' endowments grew by more than 1,000%, and none by more than 1,500%. Rice's endowment only grew by 500%. Besides, most companies that recruit on the Michigan campus are not from the state of Michigan. That's because Michigan has a very strong national appeal.

Did I hear you say that Michigan has a "chancellor". And yet you claim that you know Michigan well eh? Michigan has a president. And Lee Bolinger did not leave Michigan because of any quality issues. He turned down a couple of very enticing offers while being president of Michigan. At one point, he was considered one of the front-runners for the Harvard presidency. However, being president of Columbia, his own alma matter, was an offer he could not refuse...and they did not require a dead horse to build their case!

Michigan's mean SAT is not 1200, it is 1320. Obviously, that's still not as high as many of its private peers, but do keep in mind that Michigan does not report superscored SAT results. Michigan's mean ACT score is 29, compared to 30 or 31 at most elite private universities.

As for your statement that "hordes of nameless students rounded up into 500 seat lecture halls, grading and discussion sections the responsibility of GSAs... these are not to sought in undergraduate education." You have described what some Freshmen go through, although I am not sure there are any halls large enough to seat more than 350 or 400 students at Michigan. But then again, Freshmen at many of the country's elite universities must contend with those unfortunate conditions. Maybe not 350 or 400 students, but 150 or 200 students. But once students get past their Freshman year, classes tend to be quite small. Most intermediate and advanced level classes actually have fewer than 30 students and are taught exclusively by full time professors.

Finally, Michigan's campus may not be beautiful, but it is impressive and easy on the eyes. Some areas, like the Law quad, the diag and North Campus are very pretty. The arboretum is gorgeous. The football stadium and university Hospital are very impressive to say the least. And I cannot imagine what the new Business school is going to be like, but it should be amazing.

You should give more credit to one of America's finer universities. Denigrating Michigan does not strengthen your argument and does not reflect well on you.

At any rate, good luck to you at Rice. It is one of the best universities in the country. I am sure you will love it there.

anzacday

Hey Alexandre,

I think your math might be a tad questionable. You must realize that very few institutions generate enough money from their endowments to cover their operating costs. The situation you're describing doesn't account for tuition, research grants, donations that go not to the endowment, but to specific departments or specific construction projects. Michigan, as I'm sure you know, has a very low Alumni giving rate.

Did I get the numbers for Rice wrong... Shame on me for using Wikipedia, I guess. This 2,700% figure is impressive... but didn't UM just sell of its health care system? Surely such self-cannibalization accounts from some of the endowment gain.

It's foolish to suggest that UM won't be hurt by the state's decline. If you have no tax base, you can't well get that luscious $330 million/year can you?

If you ask me, you should just go private. Prop 2 was outrageous and, besides, only rich people can afford to go to Michigan anyway. I read that the average family income of a UM undergrad is over $100,000.

friedrice

Why is everyone neglecting to include University of Washington? It's at least a top 5 public.

Alexandre

"I think your math might be a tad questionable. You must realize that very few institutions generate enough money from their endowments to cover their operating costs. The situation you're describing doesn't account for tuition, research grants, donations that go not to the endowment, but to specific departments or specific construction projects. Michigan, as I'm sure you know, has a very low Alumni giving rate."

Yes and no. Although not complete interchangeable, endowments and state funding are both used to help fund a university's cost of operation. Michigan has a low alumni giving rate but a high alumni domation amount. And Michigan endowment is growing rapidely thanks to the way the university is investing its money. Schools only receive $50 million to $300 milion from alumni donations annually. Wealthy universities' endowments grow by more than a billion dollars annually.

"...This 2,700% figure is impressive... but didn't UM just sell of its health care system? Surely such self-cannibalism accounts from some of the endowment gain."

No, Michigan did not sell off its health care system. If anything, it is expanding it. Michigan's growth in endowment has been steady and has nothing to do with "selling off" any of its parts!

"It's foolish to suggest that UM won't be hurt by the state's decline. If you have no tax base, you can't well get that luscious $330 million/year can you?"

Michigan is taking the necessary steps to distance itself from the state financially. As it is, its own endowment on a per capita basis is higher than all but 20 or so private research universities (LACs not included). Its wealth is already on par with the likes of Johns Hopkins, Boston College, Tufts, etc... At the rate Michigan is growing its endowment, in the next decade or so, only a hand full of private research universities will have siignificantly higher endowments per capita.

"If you ask me, you should just go private. Prop 2 was outrageous and, besides, only rich people can afford to go to Michigan anyway. I read that the average family income of a UM undergrad is over $100,000."

Going private might be difficult because it would irrevocably alter the university's image. But gaining financial independence is something all universities should strive for.

anzacday

Michigan sold M-Care to Blue Cross Blue Shield, man, that's just a fact:
M-CARE Update

I don't think it's as easy as planning ahead, you know. Think of like this:

As the state continues to depopulate, UM will need either to increase tuition or be diminished academically, right? Most of the top students who enroll at UM do so because they live in the state of Michigan and don't want to pay twice as much to go to Cornell, Wash U, etc. If the state cuts funding would the University continue to offer reduced tuition rates to in state students... I don't think so. The school would face a huge brain-drain.

Michigan might not have "a decade or so" to get its financial house in order. When Detroit goes into receivership (which it will) the state of Michigan will be finished. The auto industry is hemorrhaging jobs and money... When the Oakland County millionaires leave the state, who's going to donate?

Alexandre

Anzacday, the hospitals, doctors, nurses etc... all belong to the University. And it is expanding the construction of its physical plant to include new, world-class additions. I am not sure what selling M-Care (the University's medical insurance plan) for a few million dollars has anything to do with the University Medical complex or the University's 20-years of steady and consistant growth in endowment.

At any rate, like I said above, Michigan's population and economy have steadily declined over the last 4 decades and the University of Michigan has not suffered as a result. But even if your doomsday scenario were to materialize, and state funding were to completely disapear, Michigan will adapt to its new reality and remain one of the top 20 universities in the US.

Besides, universities like Boston College, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins and Tufts seem to be managing just fine with smaller endowments per student than Michigan.

Furthermore, Michigan does not advertise, it does not throw money at students and it still manages to attract qualified students by the thousands each year.

A university that has been one of the pillars of higher education for close to two centuries will not just simply fold.

LaxAttack09

Do all Rice ugrads use wikipedia for facts? Nice job man.

Rice is known in the south, if that (I'll give you texas). Outside of the deep south Rice is just a food, sorry man (I don't even go to UM).

Last time I checked UM still places people in IB/consulting/law at a higher rate than those @ rice.

tetrisfan

Oh wow, another endowment war.

hoedown

First you trash U-M, then you make fun of Omaha? O, woe is me!

Please understand that M-Care is NOT the health system! For Pete's sake; it's an insurance plan! LOL It was a big sale, but it had nothing at all to do with selling off any assets of the health system.

Michigan's got some big classes and that's not great for everyone. But look at English comp--enrollment is limited to 18, and that's a freshmen class that just about everyone takes. And one of U-M's biggest classes is with Ralph Williams, who was voted U-M's best professor something like 9 times out of 10. People WANT to take that class. It would be a crime to limit it to 15 people and tell the other 335 students to bug off.

And to my novi friend, I think you got wooshed by my Zingerman's comment.

Just about every institution mentioned in this thread thus far is one I would consider impressive, for what that's worth. We're not comparing ground round to filet mignon here.

The idea that U-M is going down the tubes doesn't square with the big picture. The state's financial situation is not great, but we've weathered a bad state economy before. The $300 million is important to the U, but it's a pretty small slice of the revenue pie. Frankly, in times of trouble higher education can be a growth industry. All those Michiganders who can't count on making $80,000 a year working the line in a Ford plant anymore are going to have to get a college degree to make that kind of money elsewhere. And they want their kids to have degrees too. Traditionally Michigan hasn't sent many of its kids to college and that is going to change, which was the crux of the Cherry Commission report. I think all universities in Michigan could see strong enrollments in the future. In the meantime, U-M has seen its greatest growth in nonresident apps, so demand is not diminishing outside the state.

Sure, the state of Michigan's problems deserve some concern, but I think students would be foolish to make enrollment decisions based on that, or to assume U-M is going to decline precipitously. That is not going to happen.

imaparasite

I like learning in lecture hall settings.

keefer

LSA Class Sizes for First-Year Students
Average Class Sizes: Science – less than 35
Math – less than 30
English – less than 18
Lectures – normally between 50-200 students; the largest lecture hall seats 550*
(*Most lectures have smaller discussion sections (usually numbering 25 or less) to provide small group discussion and intellectual exchange)


http://www.lsa.umich.edu/UofM/Conten...07_Profile.pdf

hawkette

hoedown or anyone,
Do you know if the $300mm from the state of Michigan is just for the Ann Arbor campus or is that for all U Michigan campuses?

Also, I think that U Virginia breaks out how much they give to their medical center. Do you know how much of the state funds are directed to the medical center at U Michigan?