gellino

Keep in mind that those numbers only include those that submitted SAT (ie the highest ~75% of scorers) in the case of Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton, which would make median SAT about 30 points lower. While Midd does include all test takers in its reported SAT avg (1349 from PR), it doesn't seem like they are using that in their 25-75% range. I think that the Reed 1409 SAT is for accepted SAT, not enrolled SAT, which typically ~ 40 points lower.

xiggi

Gellino, the difference between enrolled and admitted students at Reed for the Class of 2011 was ... 20 points.

The press release of 2007 stated, "The average SAT (1410) and ACT (31) scores of the admitted class are slightly higher than in previous years."

See: Reed College | Reed College admits 1,112 Students to Class of 2011 from a Record-Breaking Applicant Pool

They admitted class with a 1410 average SAT and enrolled a class with a 1390 SAT (according to the official CDS.)

All is well in Reedland. Compared to Middlebury's "what do you want my number to be this year?" academic reporting of admissions and SAT scores, Reed seems to be as open as they are consistent.

hampster

low graduation rate. What isn't the school doing that's right? Not having grade inflation? Requiring a thesis? Requiring that a student pass an exam before even being allowed to undertake said thesis?

The fact that Reed is probably more rigorous than most of the LACs you'd put in your top ten surely outweighs its low graduation rate (assuming it's even a valid factor).

tetrisfan

Pomona
Amherst
Williams
Swarthmore
Middlebury
Carleton
Bowdoin
Harvey Mudd
Haverford
CMC

Meadesport

What about Wesleyan?

MeasureYourself

even if reed is more rigorous than most LACs (which i highly doubt is a big differnece), the low graduation rate makes it a worse school in my opinion, the students are not being convinced to stay and graduate, something is going wrong

hampster

some schools are in the business of ensuring that students receive a challenging education, that they're not country clubs that go out of their way to make sure their members (students) have a pleasant experience?

And if you doubt that Reed is more rigorous, how many schools that you'd put in the top 10 require a thesis, a qualifying examination, and lack grade inflation?

danas

hampster, Bard and Hampshire also have very low graduation rates because they attract similar students as Reed, not because the academic expectations are high.

DSC

Low graduation takes you out of the top 10. A degree is meaningless if you do nothing to achieve it, and a degree is meaningless if you don't have it. So, a school has to find the mean.

And don't try to tell me that Reed is significantly more difficult that Swat, UChicago, Caltech, MIT, or Harvey Mudd - all of which graduate kids at MUCH higher rates than Reed. That tells you that something does not measure up. Reed only graduates 57% of people in 4 years. That means that there is a very good shot you will have to spend another $45,000(minus fin. aid). Reed is an excellent school. But it is not a top 10 school. It does not measure up anywhere other than PhD productivity(which is due in large part to the people it attracts) to being a top 10 school. Top 20 or 30 - maybe and definitely.

Reed is known for being exceptionally difficult - but so are some other schools. What hurts Reed (in my opinion) is drug use and a generally quirkier student body which is more likely to move in different directions than graduation. However, this is not exclusive to Reed.

My top 10(not really ordered, more grouped by thought process):
Amherst
Williams
Swarthmore
Harvey Mudd
Pomona
Carleton
Bowdoin
Wellesley
USMA
USNA

Just missing the cut: Midd, Davidson, Claremont Mckenna, Haverford, Wesleyan

johnwesley

meadesport asks:
>What about Wesleyan?<

Caught somewhere in the middle. LAC fans, whether they admit it or not, aren't necessarily looking for "a smaller version of Brown", or "NYU's country cousin" as some others have portrayed Wesleyan. They like the relative safety of snow-bound villages and gated communities where they can live out their fantasies of exclusivity. If you pay attention to the subtext of many of the threads like this one they tend to harp on certain common themes: the small number of applicants chosen, and the remoteness from anything even faintly resembling an urban area.

OTOH, if they happen to be drawn toward research universities, including many, if not most, of the Ivies, Wesleyan's considerable virtues are apt to be lost on them. They include, but are not limited to, its hot-house atmosphere of many, myriad individuals and talents sharing one contiguous campus and faculty; the domestic, almost rustic, scale of much of its architecture; its head-of-the-pack championing of "learning for its own sake".

In other words, it's Wesleyan's off-center blend of 'hipster idealism" or "urban preppiness" that tends to keep it just off the conventional wisdom's radar screen, IMHO.

MeasureYourself

Danas makes a great point, and lots of schools recquire a thesis (carleton), and many schools encourage it...if you want to graduate with honors at many LACs, you have to write one, people can tailor there own education. 57% in four years IS ABSURD....the school is doing something wrong or the studnets just are not up to scratch.

MeasureYourself

wesleyan is a great school, i would deff put them in my top 10 over CMC and Davidson....ooops

atomicfusion

You're right. What I said wasn't a good way of explaining my point. My point was that I don't think that CMC is a better school for students interested in econ, business, etc than Mudd for students interested in science and engineering. Mudd is just as "good" as CMC by this measurement. However, the LAC rankings are biased against rigorous engineering/science schools like Mudd by their way of measuring LAC quality.

Also, I know there is no definition of a "pure LAC." But, it's obvious that Mudd isn't one because it's unlike the other "LACs." It's just like it's hard to define pornography, but you know it when you see it.

xiggi

Of course, they are! The good news is that the growing number of complaining voices about the biased Peer Assessment and expected graduation rates can't fall on deaf ears for much longer.

This said, do the rankings really matter? People who should know about Harvey Mudd ... do know!

hampster

unless there are at least 10 LACs out there that don't engage in the practice and still have other things to offer.

Harvey Mudd, CalTech, et al are more rigorous than Reed, but these schools generally have stronger students.

I agree Danas that Reed probably attracts the same type of students attracted to Bard and Hampshire, but you're wrong to imply that the academic expectations at Reed (if that's what you're implying) aren't up to snuff for the reasons I've already mentioned simply because the former two don't have very high academic expectations (though I hear that's changed[ing] at Bard).

And if it's the case that the low graduation rate is largely due to the kinds of students the school attracts, unless you can show that Reed turns people off, the low graduation rate only tells me that the students it attracts tend to go off in other directions compared to other schools. I know at Hampshire students are encouraged to go out and pursue their interests and goals even if said interests and goals lead to not graduating from the college. There's no "now that you're here, we're going to do everything we can to make sure you graduate" mentality. Completion isn't equivalent to learning and being challenged.

DSC, a degree that's not earned is meaningless, but what does that have to do with the quality of education at an institution? Those who dropped out could have been getting a great education while they were attending. It may not be a reflection on the institution as much as it is on the students who drop out. If everything about CalTech were the same except it had a 15% 6 year graduation rate because it, for example, started attracting alot of flaky math whizzes, it would still be as good as it is today.

And while it's true that other schools require a thesis, but how many of those lack grade inflation? How many of those schools require all of that Reed requires? Also, there's a world of difference in the academic environment fostered when a school requires a thesis and not merely when it is "encouraged."