Good schools for History and Pre-law? - Page 2

ElderCookies · 05-26-2008, 09:25 AM

Alexandre please provide evidence to support this. The only schools that the evidence on Law School Numbers, and other (biased I admit) sources seems to point to only HYP, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams getting a boost. Even then it only makes up for a mediocre GPA. 3.9 and 173 LSAT from Podunk U> 170 and 3.7 from HYSPM.

Alexandre · 05-26-2008, 09:55 AM

ElderCookies, I agree with you for the most part. I just don't think it is that black and white. Law schools are not as "prestige" driven as MBA programs, but they are not quite as data driven as Medical programs. I could be wrong of course. At any rate, I was not referring to top universities. Attending any respected university (such as MSU) would be more than sifficient.

rjkofnovi · 05-26-2008, 11:53 AM

LOL. Hawkette thinks, "you are a good match for Michigan." The ONLY reason she states that is because she thinks Michigan accepts, in her opinion, marginal candidates. In all honesty, with your GPA, Michigan is a reach for you. This is not to say that you cannot or won't be admitted. Apply early or go to State, where i am certain you would be a match. Don't bother with OOS tuition.

hawkette · 05-26-2008, 01:24 PM

Rjko,
I would agree that the OP is not a lock to get in at U Michigan, but are you letting your prior disagreements with me color your judgment or do you really think that romanigypyeyes is a “marginal applicant?”

The facts are that 36% of last year’s class had a GPA at her level or lower and she had some individual circumstances that negatively impacted her GPA. In addition, she performed at the 50% or better level for standardized testing. Finally, she is a first-gen applicant which gets a boost at U Michigan. Based on this, I would describe her as a match.

Alexandre · 05-26-2008, 02:08 PM

Hawkette, Michigan places much more weight on the GPA. The OP's standardized test scores are roughly average by Michigan standards, but her GPA is slightly lower. As such, I think Michigan is a slight reach. Were she applying 4 years ago, when Michigan's admit rate was over 50%, I would agree that Michigan could have been a match. But as it stands, with Michigan's acceptance rate hovering around 40% and dropping, more and more students with her credentials are getting turned down.

I still think she has a decent shot of getting into Michigan, but Michigan is more of a reach than a match.

romanigypsyeyes · 05-26-2008, 02:23 PM

My UMich GPA is 3.67, which does put me slightly below average. However, I am first generation and I grew up very low-income and now have two parents out of work (disabled and laid off) and live off of social security. And my grades this year again were due to depression, anxiety, and the fact that I missed so much school because of health issues.

But if Michigan doesn't want me, I don't want them (meaning they know what they're looking for and if I'm not it then I probably wouldn't of been a good fit anyways). That'll be my attitude to all colleges I apply to. I have had a crappy childhood but I turned that into making a fairly successful non-profit girls basketball league, I work at a teen crisis center, and I volunteer like crazy. My motto has been when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. I will be perfectly happy going to MSU because no matter where I go I will make the best of it and I'd rather save my money for law school.

So thank you Hawkette for your faith in me, and Alexandre and rjk for giving me good advice, but I am asking you not to attack each other over this.

Thanks all

.

romanigypsyeyes · 05-26-2008, 02:24 PM

Sorry that sounded a bit preachy, it wasn't supposed to be, but I tend to ramble.

hawkette · 05-26-2008, 02:30 PM

romanigypsyeyes,
I love your attitude and it sounds like the folks at the crisis center are lucky to have you, not to mention whatever college you end up at. Good luck next year with all of your applications and keep on making that lemonade!

bclintonk · 05-26-2008, 03:16 PM

ElderCookies,
It's true that law schools look more closely at undergrad GPA and LSAT scores (especially the latter) more closely than they used to, due in large part to pressure from USN rankings, but it's just flatly false to say that's all they care about. The quality of the undergraduate school also matters a great deal, for several reasons. First, the better the school, the more likely that a student with a good GPA from that school will succeed in law school. Second, they assume, probably rightly on average, that students from better schools will come to law school with more and better developed tools in their intellectual toolkit, which will add more to the overall strength of the incoming law school class and make law school a better, richer intellectual experience for everyone. Third, they assume that incoming students with a stronger undergraduate education will on average ultimately make better and more resourceful lawyers, which will reflect well on their institution and improve how they are perceived by the bench, bar, and their peer institutions. So other things equal, a student with an undergrad degree from Stanford will have a better chance at admission to more top law schools than a student with a similar GPA and LSAT scores from Cal State-Fullerton. And frankly, a Michigan grad's chances of admission will be much stronger than a Michigan State grad's, and the Michigan State grad's chances will be better than a Central Michigan grad's, and on down the line.

yesnomaybeso7 · 05-26-2008, 04:34 PM

You'll definitly want to look at places that offer a lot of study abroad oppurtunities. How cool would it be to spend a year visiting the ruins of everything! You want a school that has a reputable pre-law program but honestly, most of them are pretty equal.

lgellar · 05-26-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

One does not have to attend a top 10 or top 20 or even top 30 university

There's only one caveat with this though. If you're a really good student, it's important to be in a place where you can really show how good of a student you are. For instance, at UF I know someone who has a 4.0, which means he's not really showing graduate schools his full potential because he already has a perfect GPA. In other words, if he went to a tougher school, his GPA would be more meaningful.

romanigypsyeyes · 05-26-2008, 04:54 PM

^^ The only problem is that a lot of people can't afford tougher schools than their state universities.

countryboy · 05-26-2008, 05:56 PM

You should not worry about trying to get into a prestigious law school. Big law firms are the only ones that put a premium on where a lawyer attended law school, and big law firms don't do children's rights law. Good grades at Michigan State and a good score on the LSAT will enable you to get into many good law schools.

ElderCookies · 05-26-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

It's true that law schools look more closely at undergrad GPA and LSAT scores (especially the latter) more closely than they used to, due in large part to pressure from USN rankings, but it's just flatly false to say that's all they care about.

Those are the MAIN criterion. All schools (with the exceptions of YS) will admit you if your application is at their 75% range as a sure thing, unless something is really wrong with your application. It is only when you tie with other applicants (when you are borderline) that your soft factors play a role. Soft factors matter then yes, but otherwise-no. All evidence seems to suggest this that I have seen.

Quote:

The quality of the undergraduate school also matters a great deal, for several reasons. First, the better the school, the more likely that a student with a good GPA from that school will succeed in law school.

Debatable

Quote:

Second, they assume, probably rightly on average, that students from better schools will come to law school with more and better developed tools in their intellectual toolkit, which will add more to the overall strength of the incoming law school class and make law school a better, richer intellectual experience for everyone. Third, they assume that incoming students with a stronger undergraduate education will on average ultimately make better and more resourceful lawyers, which will reflect well on their institution and improve how they are perceived by the bench, bar, and their peer institutions. So other things equal,

Thats the rub really. Applicants are rarely totally tied, and with the right numbers you are fine.

Quote:

a student with an undergrad degree from Stanford will have a better chance at admission to more top law schools than a student with a similar GPA and LSAT scores from Cal State-Fullerton.

If they both have great scores, then both will get in everywhere but YS.

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And frankly, a Michigan grad's chances of admission will be much stronger than a Michigan State grad's,

Nope

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and the Michigan State grad's chances will be better than a Central Michigan grad's, and on down the line.

Totally wrong. Visit toplawschools.com and look up some of the threads on this, and the result threads. A limited sample but law school numbers etc, and every other sources seems to show that numbers are more important than anything else.

lgellar · 05-26-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

^^ The only problem is that a lot of people can't afford tougher schools than their state universities.

That's not necessarily true if you know which schools give good financial aid. You have to be willing to incur some debt, but I think that's reasonable if the school really ignites your passion.

Out of the top 30 schools, I'd say UVa, Rice, Vanderbilt, UNC, Cal Tech, Dartmouth, and HYPSMC all give reasonable financial aid.