Fiyero

so zapfino

We are to base which school is a public ivy by how desirable it is to people in the northeast? I disagree. I believe desirability results from quality. The northeast is not the be all end all that you and others on here think it is.

tenisghs

Flyero, I believe zapfino is basing his analysis on the fact that if Northeast kids did not get into the Ivy League colleges, the next best alternatives are heading westward (Michigan, Wisconsin) or southern (Virginia, North Carolina). They are the largest regional demographic group who matriculate to college.

Knowitsome

Other than satisfying everyone's need (including mine) to quantify and order things into lists (which is why mags put them out - they sell!), this is pretty pointless. Still, can't... fight... urge... to... pontificate!

Cal-Berkeley and Michigan are no-brainers, meeting most anyone's definition of what a top university should be. After that, it depends on what you value as your criteria as to whether one school merits inclusion or not. This is the same sort of decision HS grads face when choosing a college.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'd value a combination of selectivity, resources, distinguished faculty, academic breadth and depth, and national prestige for both undergrad AND grad schools. Thus, many fine schools mentioned by others wouldn't make my cut. The next level would include:

UCLA
UNC
UVA
Wisconsin

These all have combinations of good and great characteristics for all my criteria. If necessary to fill out the list to an arbitrary eight (using the Ivy analogy), I'd pick from Texas, Illinois, and perhaps Washington and UCSD.

Those with excellent reputations which I'd exclude are:

W&M: Not a research and graduate powerhouse
Service academies: See above, plus lack breadth/depth
Georgia Tech: Too concentrated in engineering

You are now free to either validate my opinions or else prove yourself to be wrong.

Fiyero

Regarding the University of Texas

In the famous PA score by USNWR, Texas ranks above all but UC-Berkeley, UCLA, Virginia, UNC, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Above W&M, above Washington, and tied with Illinois.

Just for grins, I decided to average the scores of USNWR for the following sections and sort them by their average. I considered UG ranking for business and engineering, and graduate rankings for business, public affairs, education, engineering, medicine and law. I used these since they were easily available in the magazine. I assume they are categories of worth, since USNWR broke down the rankings for these categories. I only averaged the schools for the categories in which they were ranked. I did not figure any zeroes.

1. UC-Berkeley 4.9
2. Michigan 8.4
3. Texas 12.3
4. UCLA 12.4
5. Illinois 18.7
6. Washington 19.6
7. North Carolina 19.7
8. Wisconsin 19.9
9. Virginia 21.3

As you can see from rankings by different areas in a university and the peer assessment overall, UT ranks with the best publics. Texas deserves to be considered a public ivy.

For my own amusement, Florida's average rank is 35. It has impressive numbers for its student body, but it is not nearly as impressive academically as the top publics.

Here_to_Help

1) Your definition is quite different from the thread's purpose for identifying/discussion "public ivies."
2) Neither Dartmouth nor Brown are graduate powerhouses, should they not be included in the ivies?
3) Provides undergraduate students with many opportunities for independent and faculty-led research. I don't have hard numbers, but compared with UVA you will most likely find that W&M brings in more research money per capita for undergraduates. (W&M also made a list of top undergrad research schools while others on your list did not, according to one CCer's quote of US News: Best Schools for Undergraduate Research)

barrons

Why leave out all the graduate departmental rankings that cover most of the liberal arts?? Not many undergrads even set foot in the law or medical schools. It has no part in general UG education. Same for many B schools.

Fiyero

I did it that way since those were the major categories USNWR used. I don't think the results would change that wildly with all. I might mess with that sometime. I never said it was UG only. A university is all of its departments, not just undergrad.

zapfino

Flyero: When I hit that send button, I knew it would ruffle someone’s feathers, especially if his/her favorite school did not make the list…

Anyway, I was only trying to convey what the term “Public Ivy” meant historically. I agree with you that desirability results from quality, but there are many quality public universities that are not perceived as public ivies in the historical meaning of that term and for reasons apart from their quality. I think tensighs correctly understands what I tried to convey.

Now, if you want to make a list of public universities that might offer an education comparable to the top private universities at a lower cost and label those schools as “public ivies”, then the list will differ from the list of schools historically perceived as public ivies. However, I don’t have an issue with pointing out that, in fact, there are a number of public universities that offer that level of academic quality. Students about to choose a college, especially those with a Northeastern bias, should be aware of those schools.

I personally don’t have a Northeastern bias. I attended both private and public universities in the Midwest, and I’ve lived and worked in several regions of the country.

However, I don’t consider the methodology of USNWR rankings to result in valid rankings, particularly due to the PA scores. In fact, a good case can be made that the USNWR rankings perpetuate a Northeastern bias and promote a level of prestige-whoring that blinds some people to the academic quality of all but the top-ranked schools.

Knowitsome

Here_to_Help, perhaps my definition is different from what you perceive this thread to be about. The Ivies are a collection of schools which are often quite different from each other, but share connotations of superior academics, selectivity, and prestige.

Within that group, though, there are distinctions, and Dartmouth and Brown are considered near or at the bottom of the grouping. That doesn't make them bad schools by any stretch nor relegate them out of the Ivy League. It just means they have less of what one would consider to be Ivy qualities of the schools in that arbitrary collection. And, BTW, while perhaps not at the overall level of their peers, they still have some pretty good grad schools (medicine and business, for example).

As the point of this thread was to express opinions of which public schools best meet those criteria, I did just that - listed the ones I feel best meet them. While W&M may be at or above the level of the schools I name on the undergrad level, it just isn't as complete as those schools at the grad level. Without a definitive definition of what a "public Ivy" is, each of us has to make up our own. My definition tries to include lots of factors and weighs grad school more heavily than, apparently, yours does. As I stated earlier, you're entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong. <--Note emoticon: it's there for a reason.

Here_to_Help

Haha ok. I guess like most ranking/lists it comes down to what you consider important in the weightings.

barrons

Flyero--they ahve an entire section devoted to arts and sciences--you know what most students actually study in college. Look again and redo the numbers.

JWT86

Berkeley's grad school did a similar USNWR composite of PhD and professional programs. For the PhD programs they included both sciences (chemistry, math, physics, etc.) and liberal arts (English, Economics, History, etc.).

average PhD score for grad programs (based on peer reputation rankings)
1. Berkeley - 4.8
1. Stanford - 4.8
1. MIT - 4.8
4. Princeton - 4.6
4. Harvard - 4.6
6. Yale - 4.4
6. Michigan - 4.4
8. Wisconsin - 4.3
8. Chicago - 4.3
8. Cornell - 4.3
8. Columbia - 4.3
12. UCLA - 4.2
13. Texas - 4.0


professional schools by mean rank:
1. Stanford - 1.8
2. Berkeley - 5.0
3. Michigan - 6.4
4. Harvard - 7.0
5. Northwestern - 12.3
6. Columbia - 12.6
7. Duke - 13.0
8. Texas - 13.2
9. NYU - 14.5
10. UCLA - 14.6
11. Wisconsin - 15.2
12. Virginia - 16.5
12. Illinois - 16.5
14. Indiana - 17.3
15. Pennsylvania - 18.6

http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/publica...kings_2008.pdf

There really is absolutely no justification for not including Wisconsin, Texas, and Illinois among any list of top publics.

sethcohen

I haven't seen anything new, but USNWR ranking.

So, Public Ivy is simply the list of top public schools based on either college or grad ranking???

BTW, USNWR composite of PhD programs is very interesting. They should show the full list to compare it with USNWR college rank.

Fiyero

I did not mean to imply I was trying to put together some comprehensive ranking of universities. I do know there are many liberal arts rankings. A whole bunch of them. I threw that together just wanting a quick overview of the rankings and used only those which USNWR gave a full page spread to. The individual departments are like 5 to a page. That is how I chose what was important when I did that in a few minutes.

Thank you for providing that JWT86. I knew the complete info had to have been done by someone. I guessed the complete info wouldn't change the list from the basic fields too much and it didn't. I agree with you completely in that Texas, Wisconsin and Illinois belong on any list of top publics. Each are amazing universities with strengths in many fields. I find it interesting that those three universities compete quite well (or better than) UNC and Virginia in the table of rankings compiled by UC-Berkeley. It also shows how truly spectacular UC-Berkeley and Michigan are.

rjkofnovi

^^^^^"I agree with you completely in that Texas, Wisconsin and Illinois belong on any list of top publics. Each are amazing universities with strengths in many fields. I find it interesting that those three universities compete quite well (or better than) UNC and Virginia in the table of rankings compiled by UC-Berkeley. It also shows how truly spectacular UC-Berkeley and Michigan are."

I concur!