schee410

Since yesterday was the 4th of July, I was looking up some America-related quotes. One that struck a chord with me was:

"America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damned well pleased."

Take that as you will.

deprofundis

"You don't anything about me."
Unfortunately, we do - or a version of you. We know you by your words.

"EVERYONE IN AMERICA has the opportunity to succeed." Hmmm. Since anecdote has little effect on you, I would say read or see "Death of a Salesman" or "Glengarry Glenross", but I doubt they would resonate with someone as determinedly judgmental as you seem to be.

lewtat

ROF you say: I'm tired of living in a country that rewards mediocrity and "participation"

why don't you leave this country. you make us look bad to the rest of the world, especially if you're the person wanting global superiority for the good old US of A.

were you abused as a child, or did you not have a childhood at all? Please, say something moderately humane or don't reply.

"Sorry, but I hold the standards for praise and respect so much higher than that and so should you." we all know this is because nobody has given you praise or respect.

HADC10

Ring of Fire, I wonder if during the course of your HS education you ever did any volunteer work, or for that matter tuned into NPR. If you ever spent time with the "plebians" you so decry, perhaps you would understand that there is more to life than an Ivy (or in your case, top 15) degree.
Furthermore, consider the factor of programs. By your standard, someone who attended U Michigan is of a higher "status" than one who attended Michigan State. But what about a nuclear engineer?
Someone at Duke should realize that a book should not be judged by its cover. Where would someone who graduated in economics from the University of Chicago be? Wall Street? The City of London? How about working as a camp counselor? On the other hand, I'll mention a certain Los Angeles area LAC, relatively unknown, and not in particularly high demand here. Can you think of anyone particularly famous who went to Occidental? And if that doesn't satisfy you, I'd like to point out that one of my state's senators lacks even a college degree.
Your posts have a modicum of merit in that a college degree can be a means of learning about a person in the absence of other information. Let us consider two senators. One has graduated his flagship state university. The other has graduated from Harvard. Would you be willing to say who is the superior legislator? Of course not. You would want to compare voting records, policy positions, and the like. If you at all sympathize with the Left, you will see Russ Feingold superior to David Vitter, and if you sympathize with the Right, then vice versa. In this context, degrees become irrelevant (UW-Madison for Feingold, and Harvard for Vitter), and we can see that the utility of using a degree as a judging point for people is near zero.
One final thought: You say that the manual laborers of America have not taken advantages of the opportunities provided them by this country. If you would for a moment consider the gap between the rich and the poor; while it is certainly wide in this country, it is far wider in India or the rest of the third world. Though the poor of America do not live on manors in the lap of luxury, they are far from the favelas and shantytowns found throughout much of the Global South. Consider that, were the opportunities provided, the poor of India could find their existence much like that of the poor in America.

LasMa

I think David Vitter is a fine example of why a diploma should not be seen as an indicator of character.

Baelor

No you haven't. You've simply taken advantage of the myriad opportunities that have been thrown at you in an environment where you know the importance of doing so. Given what you've posted so far, it is clear that everything has been handed to you and the initiative you have had to take has been minimal. You haven't actually worked for anything. Did you pay for you education? Did you pay for your extracurricular activities? Your food? Your house? Once you've done that, then you've earned the right to talk about working in life.

Neither have I, for that matter. But at least I recognize it.


Guess what? Those training wheels left me a long time ago. Duke and an investment banking job that mommy and daddy got for you is not the real world, sorry hun.


Spoken from someone who has had everything handed to him with no hesitation. The last sentence in particular is completely false -- the media do NOT reinforce the subject ("media" is plural by the way) of the importance of education, at least in a context that would be accessible to an inner-city, drug-ravaged family. You know nothing of the lifestyle of anyone under the top 10% income bracket, and so you should refrain from making absurd claims about their opportunities.


You need to justify this absurd claim. Plus, if America is actually the land of opportunity, they should be able to turn their lives around at any time and fix their mistakes -- something that clearly is not possible. The onus here is on you -- prove that every janitor, etc. has made mistakes. Otherwise your point is simply your bourgeois pontification.


Ew. You are absolutely repulsive. That's honestly one of the most ignorant and disgusting statements I've heard in my life, especially because this nation was truly founded on immigrants.

LogicWarrior

I dunno, maybe the President of the United States?

mj rothlan

oh, ROF...
I respect a high-school-educated person of good character far more than an "educated" bit of arrogant scum like you.

Another successful janitor story? This is an internet forum that represents a small segment of the American population, and you have already heard many stories of successful janitors. How many more do you want? It is not someone's education, but rather what they do in their life and how they treat people, that determines how much respect I have for someone.

And I suppose that you think Bill Gates is less worthy of respect... he dropped out of college, he must not be worthy of respect...

anonymityyy

"Former state of glory"? So tell me...are you referring to slavery, or the time a few decades back when only the very rich had any shot at a college education? Or maybe the Gilded Age before that, when most people were extremely poor factory workers with almost none of the rights workers enjoy today?

You really need to brush up on your American history. Better yet, just move. I don't think the Republicans OR the Democrats want you here.

HADC10

My point exactly.

esoteric_xx

ROF, I don't mean this in a rude way - but I think now is a time for you to look within yourself. Everyone is appalled by your statements. Everyone finds them incredibly arrogant. Everyone isn't wrong. Perhaps it is you who is making a mistake in this situation.

I have so much to say, but there is no point, others have said it before me. All I can say is that for all your elitist thoughts about education, you sadly have little of it yourself. You may have attended a history class, but you never absorbed any information about the effect of social classes on life. You may have sat in your English literature class, but you have clearly never pondered the messages of the great authors and poets.

Your father worked very hard, and I am glad that it worked out in the end, but it is important to remember that your father was also lucky. So many people work hard, but the efforts of only a few are recognized. Effort does not equal success - you also need a pinch of luck. Your father is the exception, not the rule.

No doubt that education should be respected and admired. But if you are using education as a means to discriminate amongst people, it is clear that you have never really been educated at all, because you were never enlightened.

MBA Grad 2009

deprofundis, with regard to "Death of a Salesman", you should understand that Arthur Miller was a socialist, and his story was written in a very slanted manner. Willie Loman was a man who couldn't get a break because the system in place made it impossible. I suspect FOR sees the world in something like that fashion.

Certainly I'd have to say ROF has not learned muh about business history. Ever see "2001: A Space Odyssey"? Some companies were so well-established in the 1960s that it seemed impossible they'd lose their dominance: the computers were all IBM (HAL being a clever play on the initials), the commercial space shuttle was Pan-Am. Within a generation IBM was eclipsed by Microsoft, who was passed by Mac, AT&T was dismantled and led to all sorts of new companies, including cell phones which now run movies and the internet. Not only have products and devices evolved in ways no one saw coming, but the innovations and technological leaps came from companies and people no one expected. Some of those people went to traditionally prestigious schools but many more came from untraditional paths and some did not even go to college.

As for our new immigrants, that's not a liability, it's a secret weapon. The Irish immigrants made America great at one time, at another time it was the Italians, at another time and place it was the Chinese, so why not the Latinos? Every immigrant comes here because he or she sees something in America that he can only dream about at home but believes he can make real here. These people bring visions and hopes and a lot of energy. They join and start businesses, they create communities, and they raise families and stand for growth and development. There has always been bias against the "lower" classes, people who seem to have nothing, yet the lesson of history here is that - unlike other parts of the world - in America an individual can build on his own merits and strength, and get something not unlike a level playing field. We're far from perfect, but I've been to many other countries and have yet to see another place that lets people fail or succeed on their own efforts.

To paraphrase John Paul Jones, we're just getting started, and it's the ordinary guy who looks like he's got no special talent, who sometimes ends up doing better than anyone imagined.

Ring-Of-Fire talks about America as if it was only great in the past, but fails to consider why the best business students and medical students and law students always come here for their college education, why so many international companies copy American systems and businesses for their models.

ring_of_fire

I might be saying the exact opposite of what I believe in to get a kick out of all of the posters on this site for entertainment purposes or I might be saying be what I'm saying because I just like to debate even if I don't believe my own words or I might be saying my words because I truly believe them and am passionate about my convictions.

This is an internet forum and you don't know me. Stick to what's relevant.

Listen, I think you misunderstood because my definition of what constitutes a good education is not as rigid as you make it out to be. There are thousands of colleges and universities in the United States that can provide individuals with a solid education so they can get a decent paying job(i.e. not trash collector or janitor).

STOP FOCUSING ON THE EXCEPTIONS. Usually, people who go to better schools/get a better degree/better educational opportunities become more successful in life and generally have better personal qualities(work ethic, ambition, etc.) That's all I'm saying.

I would give someone with a Harvard degree with more admiration and praise than someone who graduated from Podunk U because the degree itself indicated something to me. However, if the Harvard grad is a dimwit and the Podunk grad is brilliant, then obviously my opinion changes.

The degree definitely has a lot of utility as a judging point for people. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant. Just think about most of the successful people in American society and a significant percentage of them have prestigious degrees.

If what school you went to didn't matter at all, than Cal State Fullerton and Harvard would have an equally influential alumni base and they clearly don't.

This is such a ridiculous post. How many people in America who end up performing cheap labor do you think had such a decrepit background that they had to COMPLETELY depend on themselves from childhood? There are some extreme cases like this in the country for sure but not nearly as much as there are in places in Asia and Africa.

My frame of reference is my dad and the parents of most of my family friends for that matter. They all came from modest means and through hard work and dedication propelled themselves to economic success. Many of them grew up in areas which had political unrest, a lack of proper infrastructure(roads, public facilities, etc.), electricity and very few educated adults to guide them.

So, the people who perform cheap, unskilled labor in this country...did they grow up with gunshots sounding outside their windows? Did they grow up in a place with no roads, no electricity and a shortage of water?

You overestimate the amount of true suffering in the US. You're so young and naive.

How preposterous. I'm sure you have an awe-inspriing rags-to-Princeton story to relate to me right? Oh right...you don't.

You don't either so it's easy for you to dramatize the situation and make it seem that inner-city families have no means to achieve and economic prosperity and stuck in a cycle of violence and poverty with no fault of their own.

Take an Urban Studies or a Public Policy class at Princeton when you get the chance. It will truly enlighten you.

Most janitors I know didn't grow up in a drug-ravaged, inner-city community and have abusive families. Most had ordinary American upbringing and they simply didn't work hard when they were younger and threw most of the opportunities they were presented with away. A lot of them grew up IN THE SAME TOWN I grew up in and we live in a fairly affluent suburb.

So, in other words: They FAILED in the same school system and social environment that ALLOWED me and other students to go to top-notch schools and get great jobs.

Most of the Mexican immigrants here are illegal. If they want to live here, they should be willing to do the most disgusting and degrading jobs that our nation has to offer. Living in America is not a right, it's a privilege.

Good for you. That's generally my definition as well except there's no shortage of people who treat other individuals well. There is a shortage relatively speaking who have accomplished notable things that benefit society that are truly worthy of praise and admiration though.

Cards4Life

I don't recall saying anything about praise and respect, but I was feeling hungry, so thanks for putting words in my mouth. I was simply saying that I, personally, would rather see someone doing something and attempting to make a living, than seeing someone who is content to live off the government for the rest of their life and/or have been doing so for the last twenty years of their life. Yeah, it's not the best job out there, but not everyone can afford school, despite what you may think.

Below average life? Why, because it appears to you that he didn't make a lot of money? Because he lived in a modest house, donated to charity, drove an average car, and nobody knew about his fortune until he passed away and his money was split between his son and the school?

Not successful? Opened, ran, and passed on his business to his son, who is about to pass it on to his son, isn't something successful? Gave his time to tutor students who couldn't afford to pay someone to help them out? Served our country in war?

Please, enlighten us on what exactly would be deserving of YOUR respect, and who would be a "successful and admirable person" to YOU? There isn't a cut-and-dry definition of someone who is respectable or admirable, sorry to burst your bubble. I respect the hell out of the single father who works double shifts at a factory and spends every other waking moment raising his young son, who is on the team I coach--takes him to t-ball, reads to him, feeds him, taught him to count and read, and does anything he can to ensure his boy doesn't end up in the gang three blocks away. I also respect the hell out of the person who lives in suburbia with three kids, a wife, helps his kids with school work, takes them to sports, and does everything he can to provide a good future for his kids. Along with thousands of other possibilities of people who are doing what THEY need to do to be successful.

deprofundis

Just to skip over Ring-of-fire here: MBA Grad 2009 - yes, Miller was a socialist. Is that bad? My father had a similar experience to Willie Loman - suddenly and shockingly obsolescent at 52. The system Miller was highlighting - including the oftentimes misguided hope implicit in it - hasn't changed all that much, has it?