cucumber1

It makes me so mad when people think that they are "better" because they went to a better school. It is about what is best for the student, not how smart he or she is. I don't like any Ivy league schools; they are too far away, when I toured them most of them were in dangerous environments, and they don't have the kind of programs and majors that I am looking for.

Also, it may be better for many of these students to be the big fish in the small pond by going to schools "beneath" them. A lot of state schools offer prestigious honors programs, big scholarships, research opportunities, and other benefits for its most gifted students. Because everyone at Ivy league schools is bright, students cannot find those kinds of opportunities at those schools.

Do not call any school "beneath" somebody! You do not know about their circumstances. The valedictorian at my school last year, who had stellar grades, extracurriculars, and awards, went to state school because she could not afford to go to the prestigious universities.

tk21769

Boy, ROF sure has touched a nerve.

I do think one element of his position is indisputable. Yes, many people who are poor, or simply not very accomplished, should look first to themselves for the cause. Then again, ROF's critics are right to suggest we are all vulnerable to bad luck. We're vulnerable to injustice. Some of us more so than others.

In a good, prosperous society, everyone is less vulnerable to bad luck and injustice. Building that kind of world definitely takes hard work. However, you don't motivate people to work hard, let alone help and cooperate with each other, by being a sourpuss, by lording it over others, by gloating over your own success. You let your light shine quietly. After all, even if every single thing in your life is the fruit of your own effort, the spirit that drove you to get it was a gift. People give back and multiply it by freely showing each other respect.

(By the way, one way to show each other respect here is by not trying to "out" each other online. Better to pick and choose where we agree or disagree on the merits. Plenty of conservative people share ROF's views, we don't need to dismiss each other as un-American.)

deprofundis

MBA Grad 2009: Glad it is all under control. That hospital does sound wonderful. I wish we had that sort of care here. My dad was at Christie's hospital in Manchester, England, - a friend of mine who is a doctor said it was world class. "In that case," said my dad, "there's something wrong with the world". Christie's staff hold pieces of paper that they look at when they cross a room, to avoid looking at the people waiting. They treat people very badly, adding to the stress and strain.

ROF makes me feel old and wise and sad. I am not, personally, disputing that it is great to be able to go to what you all call "reach" schools - it's the scrabble for status and the blind contempt for others that is hard to stomach.

It can sometimes be a happy choice not to join the crazed race.

I was once on the subway in New York with a portfolio under my arm. A man asked me where I was going. "The botanic gardens in Brooklyn, to paint". I said. He said he was going to go to a grey cubicle on Wall Street, and had the day before, and would the next day, and the day after that.

CountingDown

People like ROF are the reason my H will continue to be gainfully employed for many years to come. Eventually the hubris will get them.

vinceh

That seems to be the point.

Grcxx3

"ROF makes me feel old and wise and sad."

Very true. And the sadder fact is that after all the comments and discussion - he STILL just doesn't get it.
------------------------------
"Plenty of conservative people share ROF's views"

Um....if you don't mind......PLENTY of conservatives - including this one - DON'T!
----------------------------
As for the Ivies and several top notch schools - which could be my son's "reach" schools (not the Ivies, but the other top notch ones) - they don't offer the program he wants, at least not an accredited program. So - while they are still in the running - they are at the bottom of the list.

MBA Grad 2009

Thank you Grcxx3, you are absolutely right. It's silly when one side or another imagine that their members never stoop to a certain behavior. People display their character and honorable natures (or vice versa). What we've generally been getting at here, after all, is that this whole idea of "classes" of people to be judged on some superficial assumption is noxious and absurd.

ring_of_fire

It's not superficial and there's a sound basis behind it. You all just won't accept it because the American value system has brainwashed you all into thinking that "everybody is a winner" and "character has no correlation with societal status", when reality couldn't be farther from the truth.

Academic education and "real-world" education aren't mutually exclusive. Individuals who succeed scholastically often pick up other qualities/skills like ambition, time management, determination, work ethic, organization, etc. that help manage their personal lives better.

America isn't a third-world community. Unless you were born handicapped or had severe drug problems as a child, there are plenty of avenues to be successful, at least with regards to one's current economic situation. The United States is full of rags to riches stories and the idea that there is a large demographic in the US that is incapable of going to college and pursuing a white collar job is preposterous. A lot of middle class and lower class Americans simply accept cheap, unskilled labor as their destiny and do nothing to challenge or empower themselves.

I of course treat unskilled workers with basic human kindness and dignity. I do "look down" upon them in the sense that I am saddened that they did not live up to their potential and didn't take advantage of the same American democratic system that billions worldwide would like to be a part of.

I just feel bad for them...without a lack of a better of phrase. And many of them steal and traffic drugs as well...clearly signs of 'good character".

noimagination

@ring_of_fire: Your arguments would be more effective if you backed them up with some sources. Is the US really "full of rags to riches stories"? What percentage of low-income children go on to have financial success?

HADC10

ROF, do not be so quick to assume that the professions you look down upon are "lesser," or that the people working in them haven't figured out a path to riches. Where I live, construction workers can be earning six figures. People who work in the oil fields are definitely not at white collar jobs, and yet nevertheless, they make as much, or more, than many lawyers. If (as you wrongly claim), the only test of a person is how much money they have, then there are many ways to achieve that other than a degree from Dartmouth.

starcrossed

In America, education does not always equal success. Prestigious degrees don't make you a better person. I like that about America. I also like the idea that it's not about where you've been, but where you're going that is important. ROF has a point in that the opportunity exists for everyone to rise above what they were born into. (However this does not equate to going to Harvard or MIT or whatever).

Every day, I see people who have grown up in extremely unfortunate circumstances. Sure, it makes it difficult to succeed, but the problem is that so many people are complacent with their lifestyles, because that's "just the way it is", that they don't move to change their lives. Not a whole lot of people in my family have gone to college. Gandhi said that "YOU must be the change you wish to see in the world" and an individual must be dedicated to being the change in their families, communities, etc. The opportunities to succeed are all around them. My school offers after school homework help and tutoring (free) for kids who are struggling, they offer AP/Advanced/Honors courses, we have an Early College program (graduate HS with an associate's degree), and you can take college classes for free as early as your junior year. We offer these on top of vocational programs that can help a student be ready to pursue a trade right after graduation. Opportunity doesn't grab you, you have to grab it. Bottom line.

In response to the actual idea of the thread...I think academic prestige is important. If someone is an academic individual who wants to be surrounded by students of their caliber, then a mediocre state college probably isn't going to work out. Maybe not the Ivies, but good, reputable, academic schools. I think there is no shame is choosing the more expensive, more rigorous school as opposed to going with what's affordable/close/etc. For a lot of families, college in itself in not affordable, not matter where you go. My family can't afford 25,000 dollars in tuition, but we sure as hell can't afford the 16,000 at Ohio State or the 4,000 for the local small university. I would honestly rather be in debt and go to a school that I really want to go to than to attempt to placate myself at a school I didn't really want to attend in the first place.

MBA Grad 2009

We are saying nothing of the kind. Actually, your argument is much closer to that nonsense, since you are the one saying that a person is "ruined" if they don't go to the "right" school, that janitors and manual laborers are people who are 'paying for bad choices'. You also continue to dwell on some notion that social status depends on a dance of constant subtlety, as if knowing the "right" people and 'going to the "right" school' determines success and happiness more than work, personal choices, and diligence. Your elitist attitude reminds me of the man who judges people by the clothes they wear and the cars they drive, rather than their character and ethics.


But there is no causality between the price of the college you go to and the amount of success you get in life. As I said - and you ignored - far more top CEOs went to "ordinary" colleges than "top" colleges, and many successful and innovative leaders came from backgrounds that - on the surface - did not hint at their future success.

Given that you have admitted that you have never worked a manual job in your golden-spoon life, how in the world do you dare to claim to know this? Every post you have put up in this thread reeks of your contempt for 'those people'.



I guess when one is terrified of actual work, it is impossible to realistically comprehend those who actually do real work, hmm?

DunninLA

MBA Grad -- I'll mention this again... ROF comes from a Caste system in which the ruling elite has rationalized the lack of opportunities offered to the poor and disenfrachiised by creating a special Caste, or Class (i.e. lower class, manual laborers) that makes it all make sense. This is not that different from the Arian Master Race, or plantation owners in the Antebellum south (a geography containing ROF's choice of undergraduate instituion) which viewed slaves as un-human -- pets at best and beasts of labor at worst. In all three of these strains of thought (Caste system in India, Arianism, and Antebellum slavery), the obligation to treat other humans with dignity and respect did not apply because a group of society was simply DEFINED as non-human or less human. While this thinking is not techinically racism in every case, it is CLASSISM always.

I can't help but assume that many of these attitudes were absored by ROF from his parents. In that case, it's not all on ROF. It is now for ROF to critically examine his Caste ideas and modify them as he sees fit. They won't serve him well in life or business, since he is not a Dupont or Rothschild, or from any other family were work is an option and social obligations reign supreme.

Pea

You're a prince.

MBA Grad 2009

As in Niccolo Machiavelli?