IBclass06

Coolbrezze, you missed my point. The students ALREADY IN medical, law, business, and divinity school at Wake Forest will not be competing with undergraduates, and therefore I didn't count them. They have separate law professors, medicine professors, etc. They are not in the same courses as undergraduates and have virtually no interaction with undergraduates or the professors undergraduates will have. An MD student at Wake will not be taking a course in English or Math, nor will an undergraduate be taking a course in Torts or Anesthesiology. Similarly, I didn't count the social work graduate students at Bryn Mawr.


This is why Washington & Lee can have a law school and still be a LAC...its law school has no bearing on the quality of undergraduate education.

Coolbrezze

^

Oh right, my mistake. I over read graduate, or mistaken it for undergraduate during my reading. Yeah, then your statement completely makes sense.

smartalic34

you have a point about the other graduate schools' faculty, but I still stand by my statement that LACs offer community due to their small undergraduate size, which the small universities simply do not have. you mention Washington & Lee, which has 1,800 undergrads. again, a small, close-knit community. with a smaller population, there is chance one knows a higher % of the students

Here_to_Help

Even at W&M with 6k undergrads you get to know a large chunk of the population and there is still that great feeling of community. And I disagree with the notion that professional school students and staff don't interact with the undergrad population. Even as a freshman I was at the law school for speakers and events, and was on a school committee with law school faculty. A law student is the current VP of the Student Assembly and law students oftentimes come to both large and small events on the main campus. Speakers and debates and other similar events on the main undergrad campus also include law faculty.

par72

Holy Cross-2800 students- has a very nice campus,1 hour from Boston.

johnwesley

I completely disagree with IBClass06's description of professional students as somehow not impacting the quality of life of arts and science undergrads. Assuming that they share the same campus (not always the case), professional students certainly add to the general busy-ness of the campus walkways; they take breaks from their studies, buy snacks from the student center and lounge on the grassy areas just like everyone else. And the buildings where they ostensibly "hide out" are not exactly shrinking violets either. Penn's teaching hospital is a sprawling presence just footsteps away from the freshmen dorms. Not to mention the virtual campus-within-a-campus that Wharton projects. And, not counting Bryn Mawr's MSW students (because it's not an arts&science program) is just plain silly. I bet if you ask any of them, they would certainly consider themselves part of the Bryn Mawr campus.

collegehelp

LACs with enrollment over 2000

enrollment, SAT 25th, SAT 75th, school

2045 1320 1520 Williams College
2156 1320 1480 Washington and Lee University
2450 1300 1490 Middlebury College
3149 1300 1490 Wesleyan University
2389 1300 1460 Vassar College
2344 1270 1465 Wellesley College
2839 1270 1460 Colgate University
2860 1260 1450 Oberlin College
2359 1250 1440 Barnard College
2026 1230 1400 Colorado College
3719 1230 1390 Bucknell University
2158 1230 1390 Franklin and Marshall College
3650 1220 1400 Lewis & Clark College
2481 1220 1380 Gettysburg College
4543 1215 1380 United States Air Force Academy
2915 1210 1390 Wheaton College
2388 1190 1390 Dickinson College
2382 1190 1370 Lafayette College
3073 1180 1410 St. Olaf College
2507 1180 1400 Trinity College
2880 1180 1380 Furman University
2898 1180 1350 College of the Holy Cross
3101 1170 1390 Smith College
4060 1170 1360 University of Richmond
2769 1170 1350 Skidmore College
2563 1160 1380 Gustavus Adolphus College
4494 1160 1370 United States Naval Academy
2499 1150 1389 Grove City College
2180 1150 1370 Denison University
3390 1150 1350 United States Military Academy
2125 1140 1400 Illinois Wesleyan University
2829 1140 1340 University of Puget Sound
2065 1130 1330 St Mary's College of Maryland
2720 1120 1330 Willamette University
2492 1120 1320 Muhlenberg College
2622 1110 1315 Milwaukee School of Engineering
2126 1110 1310 Allegheny College
2298 1110 1310 DePauw University
4171 1075 1325 Calvin College
2081 1070 1330 Nebraska Wesleyan University
3058 1070 1290 Cedarville University
3238 1060 1310 Hope College
2823 1060 1300 Concordia College at Moorhead
3511 1060 1260 University of North Carolina at Asheville
2321 1050 1290 Goucher College
3022 1040 1315 Northwestern College
2428 1040 1230 Saint Michaels College
2605 1030 1270 Drew University
2802 1030 1270 Messiah College
4904 1030 1220 Christopher Newport University
2540 1030 1160 Flagler College
2110 1023 1325 College of Saint Benedict
2428 1020 1225 Eckerd College
3739 1011 1235 University of Puerto Rico at Cayey
4155 1010 1210 SUNY at Purchase College

Here_to_Help

I've heard that SUNY Geneseo has that same LAC feeling too.

lolcats4

I second (third) the nomination for the Claremont Colleges

bluebayou

True to a point. But I would suggest that Dartmouth and Wake are the exceptions to prove the rule. Dartmouth's isolation makes it a community (aka the Dartmouth bubble). Ditto Wake, for similar reasons. Winston-Salem is not an attractive student urban enclave, nor college town (such as Boston), and the WF campus is a self-contained, country club atmosphere. There is literally no where to walk off campus to a movie theater; well, ok, a long, hike will get you there.

rorschachman

Wow! Thanks so much for all the fantastic information and opinions - I really don't know how I'd manage without you. I was glad to see that my post sparked some discussion as to what makes a college a "liberal arts college".

I understand that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too (with regard to size of college), but I guess I'm just greedy. ;-)

On a related note, I know that I'm asking a lot to get generous financial aid at any of these great colleges. If it makes any difference, the "full-need" side of things is more important to me than the "needs blind" aspect - I'm probably about average (wealth wise), and am willing to pay a significant proportion of the fees.

teenageclichee is spot on in that my OP wasn't very clear - what matters to me is a sense of vibrancy, not size in itself (though I think that to a degree the two come together).

I'd already been looking at Rice, Tufts and the Claremont Colleges, which makes me confident that the rest of your suggestions will be good too. I looked at Washington&Lee, too, and I'm afraid it sounds a little sporty and "southern" for me. I realise that may seem narrow minded, but I want to spend the next four years in somewhere that I'd feel more culturally comfortable. WRT. the Claremont Colleges: at Amherst I felt that the college got rather "overwhelmed" by UMass Amherst, so I have a little reluctance. I'm not explaining that very well - it's more of a qualitative thing, I guess.

One slight concern I have with some of these colleges is the prominent role religion plays in many of them. I have absolutely no objection to any religion, but I am very much an atheist and a "social liberal", and so I would feel a little uncomfortable in a religious environment. That said, I understand that none of these is exactly BYU.

Wake Forest seens to be cropping up a lot, and it looks really interesting. William & Mary, Wesleyan, Vassar and Brandeis also sound great. I'll do some more research on them, and on the others you've suggested.

collegehelp - thanks for the list - that'll be really useful for reference (as an international student I have little idea where colleges fit into the spectra of academics and size).

Thanks again for all your help, and sorry if any of my post seems bigoted - I just want to be frank with you all.

Cheers,
Jo.

bluebayou

^^You'll find that the Claremont colleges are completely unlike the 5C of which Amherst is a part. (Personally, I don't think the 5C offers Amherst students much....) Unlike the 5C, the Claremont colleges are fully integrated, and all are highly selective. Thus, the student level is similar across the colleges.

teenage_cliche

In terms of vibrancy...though it's an average-sized LAC (bit under 2,000 students), I found Macalester to have the most vibrant students and atmosphere of all the schools I've visited so far. Having Minneapolis/St. Paul certainly helps!

lolcats4

Also, it makes a big difference when all the schools have contiguous campuses.

rorschachman

I'm glad to hear that the Claremont Colleges are so different to the 5C - I guess that being of similar size helps (rather Amherst's 1600 and UMassA's 26000). Funnily enough I looked briefly at Pomona a while ago, but disregarded it, as I didn't understand the Claremont college set-up.